Another police shooting of a black man, this time at the University of Cincinnati

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Legally, that the traffic stop escalated is not a meaningful factor in the murder case. It will be covered but both sides can use it: the defense, for example, can say the escalation by both sides contributed to poor decisions by the dead man, etc.

The legal standard is clear: there has to be significant threat, etc., all as I quoted from the Supreme Court in a prior post. People are spending way too much time thinking about what the video shows when the underlying legal standard says: you can’t shoot a guy with that kind of threat. So for example, people have walked away from an officer and then suddenly turned and ran at the officer with a deadly weapon … but that doesn’t mean an officer could shoot a person walking away because there’s a chance maybe the guy would turn and try to knife him. That’s not an immediate significant threat until it happens. That applies to this case: that the officer maybe thought that maybe he might be dragged if this or that happened is not an immediate significant threat of harm. His response was inappropriate and carries consequences - a trial, at least - because he killed a person rather than first try to extricate his hand (if it was actually in the car). That is, to try to be clear, imagine he was headfirst in the car and the car started to move … then he would have faced an immediate significant threat of being seriously harmed. But his hand maybe in the car window? That doesn’t meet the legal standard, which is what the prosecutor said.

And a key part of this legally is that his immediate reaction was to pull his gun and fire. The video, to me, appears to show that as soon as the car started to move, within 1 second, the gun was out and the man was essentially dead. There was no legal justification to draw the gun but that wouldn’t have mattered if he hadn’t fired. As a person, you have legal requirements to meet before you take a person’s life. As an officer, he was trained not to do this.

This case is, to me, mostly similar to the one where the guy at a gas station murdered a kid and claimed he saw a gun pointed at him - and insisted during and after trial that they must have disposed of the gun right after the shooting. That the attacked kids were playing music loud and that there was some sort of confrontation was clear but this guy claimed legally he had a right to kill a person because he thought he might have seen a gun. Convicted.

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Sax, I never claimed to have been capable of reading the officer’s mind. I did put forth a possible alternative as to what he may have thought, instead of the two different things he is reported as having said he thought, because I quite frankly don’t believe him. I am well aware that this belief disqualifies me as a potential juror, and I’m perfectly fine with that. My own judgement of Officer Tensing’s actions are based entirely upon what I observed in the video that has been made available. I suspect the video evidence, along with forensic evidence, will play a major role in his trial and will probably carry more weight than the words of the defendant, whose primary motivation will be to keep his bacon out of the fire.

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What he said is part of the record just like all the other evidence. Apparently, you can’t remember from post to post that we talked about how a trial is designed to sort that all out.

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Of course I know that what the officer is on record as having said will play a major role in his trial, as do all defendant statements and testimonies. I wasn’t born yesterday. I’m also well aware that there’s no such thing as an actual tractor beam, which was entirely my point. What? Did you actually think I believed in the existence of such technology?

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Your statement that you would be disqualified from serving as a juror, poetsheart, is part of the reason why it is so difficult to get convictions in these cases. In well-publicized cases, courts sometimes allow jurors to sit who have previously seen the video evidence in the media, SO LONG AS THE PERSON HAS FORMED NO OPINIONS about the case despite viewing the video. That HUGELY stacks the deck against prosecution. Who sees a video like this and draws no conclusions?

I am firmly convinced that is what happened in the original Rodney King case. Every single juror had seen the video in the media but none had drawn any conclusion about it.

The courts really need to empanel juries who have NOT seen the evidence prior to trial, no matter how long it takes to seat a jury.

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Oops wrong thread.

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I question the mental powers of someone who can look at the Rodney King video and honestly draw absolutely no conclusions.

You neglected to mention that that trial was moved to Simi Valley, a white suburb where a lot of cops live, and that there were exactly zero blacks on the jury. The reason that matters is that, as any fair-minded person knows by now, whites have an entirely different experience of cops than blacks do.

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That was helpful, Lergnom.

I was once a prospective juror in a trial where a man died while in a prison cell… The police officers on duty were being charged in some way for failure to act. They said he committed suicide.

At he time we had a very bad cop in the family that was causing major heartaches for the family. The judge was adamant i should not be excused . He said i should be able to put those feelings aside. I ended up being excused because my profession was crisis intervention and suicide prevention.

I found it interesting he didn’t care at the time if I had no trust in the police department.

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Meanwhile…back in Baltimore

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/01/baltimore-killings-soar-to-level-unseen-in-43-years/?intcmp=hpbt1

Sigh.

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This…and in the name of fairness…this also

https://bsgetok.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2015/02/21/this-american-life-podcast-cops-see-it-differently/

Yes, cops see things and people differently because we ALL base our assumptions and responses on our experiences.

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@emeraldkity4 I am not saying that a Caucasian person’s murder by police is less important than a minority’s. What I was trying to highlight is the grossly high proportion of minority deaths. African-Americans make up only 12-13 percent of the population, yet 31 percent of fatal police shooting victims were Black. Your comment is like when a man highlights a specific instance where they were “oppressed” and uses that as an example against focusing on feminist issues. Yes, it is a tragedy that this kid died, but for you to use that as an example against focusing on minority police shootings is a prime example of America’s race problem. We have to directly address the main issues to find permanent solutions.

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sax, your post brings up a huge point: since you’ve sat on a jury, you know they follow very strict standards, that they get specific instructions about the law (and often how to apply law to facts), that it’s never a matter of: well, the officer said this or the officer believed this but did this action meet this particular legal standard. Nearly all talk about this case - and others - is essentially non-legal, non-lawyer, non-jury thinking in which people confuse their personal opinions and observations with the detailed edifice of rules and precedents that is criminal justice.

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@LasMa more whites die by police than blacks I do not get your point. Black or white you follow the law. And if you keep wanting to look up statistics blacks make up about 50% of all murder yet are a significant minority in this country.

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A researched and reported guess about police killings by race - which is only a guess because we don’t keep good stats about this - is that 30% of the dead are black. That’s versus being 13-14% of the population. I don’t think it’s fair for people to note that blacks are incarcerated at a higher rate and then cite absolute numbers about police killings rather than the equivalent higher rate. (Not saying you did but in general.) Note the guess is 19% of the dead are Latino, which is similar to the Latino percentage of the general population. Only blacks are at a much higher rate than their equivalent percentage in the population.

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http://news.yahoo.com/memphis-police-officer-fatally-shot-during-traffic-stop-050151418.html Perhaps this has already been mentioned on this thread, but here it worked the opposite way - tragically, a cop was killed during a traffic stop. No mention of the race of the shooter… hmmm.

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It should go without saying that it is completely unacceptable that law enforcement officers are gunned down during routine traffic stops. My heart always drops when I hear of such occurrences. And it happens all too often.

You know, it amazes me how some people seem completely incapable of comprehending that one can fully understand how dangerous the job of law enforcement can be, respect those who undertake that job with integrity and professionalism, fully support them, grieve their loss, and be outraged by bad policing that results in abuse of authority, and unnecessary injury and loss of life among the civilian population. Most police officers endeavor to do their jobs in good faith, and with honesty and professionalism. I truly believe that. But, that’s no more than we should expect from those whom we grant broad reaching powers, not the least of them being the power of life and death in the context of upholding the laws of civil society. It is exactly the gravity of this trust that makes it imperative that we not tolerate bad cops and bad policing practices.

On a side note, my mom and I were with my D this weekend when she experienced her first routine traffic stop. We were headed back to my sister’s Columbia Md. home where much of the family had congregated to celebrate my parent’s 59th wedding anniversary. She had not been speeding. She did not fail to signal. Her left brake light bulb had appenently gone out, something she’d been completely unaware of. The officer was courteous, professional (and truth be told, rather handsome :smiley: ). He asked for, and was presented with D’s license and registration. He informed her of the missing brake light, and issued a warning citation after running her information through the system. Everyone was calm and pleasant. Salutations were exchanged, and we were sent on our merry way. Easy-peasy. Thank God this stop was conducted and concluded in the same way the vast majority of traffic stops happen in this country.

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@poetsheart That is how the majority of traffic stops for caucasians proceed. When you get pulled over as a minority you feel tremendous fear. You don’t know if the police officer will overreact. Statistics show that blacks are more likely to be issued higher tickets/citations even when pulled over for the same reason as a white person. Just look at what happened to Sandra Bland vs. Dylann Roof when they were arrested.

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Unfortunately, like the example this thread references, I think resisting the stop or trying to drive off greatly increases the chances that the officer will overreact.

I am seeing a lot of “statistics” cited in relation to this thread, but very few, if any, of the examples contain appropriate and valid numbers.

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So the onus is entirely on the civilian not to behave in any way that might displease the officer, no matter how minor (Freddie Gray, for example, was detained and later killed because an officer didn’t like the way Gray looked at him). And if the civilian does displease the officer, his life is forfeit. The officer has no responsibility to behave professionally, or to defuse a tense situation, or even to follow his training or department protocol.

Understood.

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Hamlin, I’m black, so I know the feeling of fear and apprehension those flashing lights can engender. I grew up overhearing stories of abusive stops and intimidation tactics experienced by the black men in my family and friendship circles. Back in the sixties and early seventies, a lot of families in my neck of the woods (and in much of America, frankly) had only one car that was primarily driven by the dad, so the men were far more likely to be the ones pulled by police. I distinctly remember my Dad, uncles, and their friends talking about what to do to avoid getting shot. First: hang both hands outside the open window of the driver’s side door, so that the possibly trigger-happy can see them at all times. Second: keep your cool no matter what, because chances were very good that one of them (though this was more true of the County Mounty than the State Strooper) would use the opportunity to throw his weight around, as well as to call you “boy” (or worse). Third: always have your driver’s license and registration up-you-date and within easy reach. Fourth: as much as possible, make sure your state inspection sticker is current, and all your lights work. I also remember over-hearing my Dad giving my newly licensed 16yr. old younger brother “the talk” about how to behave during traffic stops. By then, the advice as to what to do with the hands had shifted to placing them on the top of the steering wheel and leaving them there, instead of hanging them outside the window. (Some white denizens of CC have reported advising their children to do the same when stopped by police. It’s good advice. period.).

With the exception of surprise roadblocks to check for drunk driving and other violations, I’ve personally been stopped fewer than than about 8-10 times throughout my driving history (I’m a woman, BTW). The first few times, I was scared spitless. But, truthfully, I’ve never been treated less than professionally by the law enforcement I’ve encountered (which is not something all the males in my family can say).

In the wake of recent high profile stories of police abuse caught on camera, I took the opportunity to question my brother-in-law about his experiences with law enforcement, and whether he ever felt he’d been targeted as a black male. My sister’s husband is a tall, athletic, dark-skinned man. He is a Marine Corp US Naval Academy graduate, and is one of the most focused, personable, self-disciplined, and career driven people I’ve ever met. We often joke that he has a big S (for “Superman”) secretly stamped on his chest. ;)) Currenty, he’s a top performing regional manager for a major bio-pharmaceutical company.

He’s never been one to do much in the way of complaining about anything, so I had never recalled hearing him say anything about his own experiences as a black man behind the wheel. When I asked him if he’s ever experienced DWB, he swiftly answered, “Oh yeah, plenty of times, but not really much in recent years.” Back in the early 90’s, not long after he graduated from the Naval Academy, he drove a red Mazda sports car, and he used to get pulled over all the time, often, he said, for BS reasons (though admittedly, once or twice for speeding, too :> ). The first question he was almost always asked after handing over his papers was, “Does this car belong to you?” North Carolina cops were the ones most likely to actually call him, “boy”. He said he just resolved to keep his cool no matter what, and come out of each encounter healthy and free of bullet holes. He was always courteous, and addressed the police officer as “officer”, even the ones whom he knew to be profiling him. My BIL is one of the most cool-headed, and unflappable people I know, kind of like President Obama. He said he will never give people the pleasure of labeling him as “an angry black man”, and indeed, I’ve never actually seen him angry. Annoyed a couple of times, sure. But never angry.

BIL was scouted by the FBI not long after graduating from The Acacdemy, and he and my sis know, and have among their friends, people in varying positions of law enforcement, including State Police, FBI and Secret Service. They’ve both heard a lot of stories, but one that made my sister sit up and take notice was when one of their police acquaintances bragged that he can always find “something” for which to pull a motorist over, no matter how small. Basically, the guy gave off a air of being proud of his ability to flex his muscle for no particularly justifiable reason. 8-|
And this was a black cop.

So yeah, I hardly reside in the land of unicorns and butterflies where My Little Pony farts in rainbow colors. I know the stats, and my own Eagle Scout son has had in his 24 years, more than his fair share of walking-while-black encounters with law enforcement (though, interestingly enough, has seldom been pulled over while driving), and being stopped and patted down for weapons, while being accused of crimes he’s never committed. He’s been given “the talk”, and knows how much his life means to his parents, which is why he tries his best to remain safe in ALL situations. It’s instances which show how terribly quickly things can go badly that scare me. It’s taxing enough having to fear the civilian criminal element. As law abiding citizens, we should not have to fear law enforcement as well.