Another shooting and protest

[twoinanddone]

No, the police don’t drive drunk drivers home and arrange to have their cars parked safely. No, people waiting at Wendy’s or working there do not confront people who fall asleep at the drive thru. Why? Because those people have broken the law (just being in control of a car while intoxicated is illegal) and might become violent.

No, police don’t shoot at the legs or just to wound. Why? Because they really aren’t that good of shots. They shot for the biggest body mass, which is often the chest.

Cops aren’t going to wait for the mental health specialists, or the drunk driver specialist when there is a situation that needs to be handled right then. They aren’t going to council people in a Wendy’s parking lot in the middle of the night. I’m surprised they had the guy move the car but maybe they couldn’t get him out of the car where it was when he first fell asleep.

People running away from cops, especially those who just took a taser, are a danger. Do you know how many cops are shot or killed when they are trying to serve warrants? Not all suspects can just be picked up the next day because the cops have their license and address (and really, do you think all those addresses are current?).

[camathmom]

I think from what is out there so far, that this is a different situation entirely and that the officer was well within what was appropriate in this instance.

I disagree. The police handled this situation in a stunningly stupid and reckless manner, unnecessarily escalating the situation at a time of high racial tension in this country, and ultimately causing a violent death.

There is nothing remotely appropriate here about shooting this unarmed fleeing man in the back two times and killing him. There is absolutely no justification for the use of lethal force here, and I suspect that the officer will be criminally charged.

[ucbalumnus]

@twoinanddone

Cops aren’t going to wait for the mental health specialists, or the drunk driver specialist when there is a situation that needs to be handled right then.

Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of social work (mental health, addiction, etc.) is dropped onto police by default because there are not enough actual social workers for the social work that really should be done (and less expensively) before it becomes a crisis/emergency and a police matter.

[momofboiler1]

Hence the conversations around redistribution of funds.

[MomofJandL]

If he were stopped drunk driving through the neighborhood everyone would appropriately be clamoring for his arrest. I’m not ready for police to start calling social workers to counsel drunk drivers.

[Leigh22]

I agree this man should not have been killed. I disagree that the officers escalated the situation - the victim escalated the situation when he fought being arrested, punched the officer and grabbed the tazer.

Right now, drunk driving is a crime and getting arrested for it is the norm.

[Snowball_City]

If he was sitting in the car with the engine off, he wasn’t drunk driving. there were definitely ways to de escalate this. I wonder if the invention of the taser leads police to go for that first.

Anyone here from Tulsa who can give local knowledge about the two teenagers handcuffed for walking on the street where there was no traffic? Is it true that there are few sidewalks in that neighborhood? How could jaywalking lead to handcuffing kids? I walk in the street all the time.

[ucbalumnus]

@Snowball_City

Anyone here from Tulsa who can give local knowledge about the two teenagers handcuffed for walking on the street where there was no traffic? Is it true that there are few sidewalks in that neighborhood? How could jaywalking lead to handcuffing kids? I walk in the street all the time.

You mean this incident (police body camera video included)?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tulsa-police-slammed-after-video-shows-handcuffing-2-black-teens-n1229806

[MomofJandL]

@Snowball_City

If he was sitting in the car with the engine off, he wasn’t drunk driving. there were definitely ways to de escalate this. I wonder if the invention of the taser leads police to go for that first.
.

Watch the video. It was very calm and polite until the handcuffs came out.

He wasn’t parked in the lot, he was passed out drunk in the drive through lane, blocking other customers.

He had reason to be concerned that his parole/probation would be revoked because of the DUI, he wasn’t going to allow the police to arrest him if he could help it.

[doschicos]

@Snowball_City

If he was sitting in the car with the engine off, he wasn’t drunk driving.

Given the way the law is written in many states (all?), this very much is considered drunk driving. Being behind the wheel of a vehicle and drunk, regardless of location and movement, is DUI.

However, IMO, the cops were incompetent here.

[PrdMomto1]

@ucbalumnus

@twoinanddone

Cops aren’t going to wait for the mental health specialists, or the drunk driver specialist when there is a situation that needs to be handled right then.

Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of social work (mental health, addiction, etc.) is dropped onto police by default because there are not enough actual social workers for the social work that really should be done (and less expensively) before it becomes a crisis/emergency and a police matter.

@momofboiler1

Hence the conversations around redistribution of funds.

I used to work as a social worker in some large cities (Minneapolis and Memphis). While I understand the feeling behind the “distribution of funds” movement, I am also a little skeptical about it. For example, people keep using domestic disturbance calls as an example of something a social worker can handle. As a social worker I would not have wanted to walk into a situation like a domestic disturbance without knowing it was safe for me to do so. A victim is calling because she doesn’t feel safe against a violent abuser and we want to send in social workers? Sure I think a trained social worker could help diffuse many situations but I don’t think you can expect a social worker to just walk into a potentially violent situation. This will all seem like a great idea until a social worker gets killed. But if the police have to get involved to ensure the social worker’s safety, that would just be involving more people and cost more money.

When I worked in Memphis I worked with families in their homes. We were told if we ever didn’t feel safe that we should leave. Social workers obviously aren’t armed and aren’t necessarily equipt to deal with violent people with no support. If someone told me I had to start responding to calls of people passed out in cars or domestic calls when a women feared for her safety I would not have felt safe doing so. There would have to be a massive retraining of social workers at the minimum!

[ucbalumnus]

@doschicos

@Snowball_City

If he was sitting in the car with the engine off, he wasn’t drunk driving.

Given the way the law is written in many states (all?), this very much is considered drunk driving. Being behind the wheel of a vehicle and drunk, regardless of location and movement, is DUI.

https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2018/title-40/chapter-6/article-15/section-40-6-391/ is the Georgia definition of DUI.

https://lawyermarkjones.com/driving-under-the-influence-and-the-actual-physical-control-requirement/ is a Georgia lawyer’s discussion of the matter.

[ucbalumnus]

@PrdMomto1

@ucbalumnus

@twoinanddone

Cops aren’t going to wait for the mental health specialists, or the drunk driver specialist when there is a situation that needs to be handled right then.

Perhaps part of the problem is that a lot of social work (mental health, addiction, etc.) is dropped onto police by default because there are not enough actual social workers for the social work that really should be done (and less expensively) before it becomes a crisis/emergency and a police matter.

@momofboiler1

Hence the conversations around redistribution of funds.

I used to work as a social worker in some large cities (Minneapolis and Memphis). While I understand the feeling behind the “distribution of funds” movement, I am also a little skeptical about it. For example, people keep using domestic disturbance calls as an example of something a social worker can handle.

That is why much of the needed social work needs to occur before the situation becomes a potentially-violent crisis that requires police attention.

Granted, domestic disputes are probably not the best example, since many of them are “hidden” until they become a potentially-violent crisis that requires police attention. But other social work issues like mental health, addiction, and homelessness are often much more noticeable before they get to the point of becoming something the police need to be called in for.

[privatebanker]

Mothers against drunk driving think it’s a pretty serious crime. It kills. Thousands and thousands.

And the police were not incompetent.

There is a point when you must honestly ask yourself whether you would want your child brother or sister or dad or mom to protect themselves when an armed person turns to fire at you. Or hope it’s just a taser and that you won’t die from that and then they won’t take your weapon. Or go use it on someone else.

Sorry.

Most would say protect yourself first.

Are we asking Police to no longer have the option to protect themselves?

They would be right to consider mass job actions or protests.

In fact, I think a nationwide police walk out for a week or so would clear up the confusion for many as to their value.

You won’t have anyone signing up or at least parents and souses begging their loved ones to reconsider.

The young man didn’t have to die that night and made a series of terrible decisions that night.

There is a part of life that does require and expect personal accountability.

And social workers to domestic calls. These are by far the most dangerous and explosive situations. Experienced state troopers absolutely hate these calls.

Social workers and being unarmed. Alone. I think it sounds good on paper. Bad bad bad idea. What happens when it’s seven in the same night? We have countless numbers if LCSWs just sitting around in case?
In every city and rural section of the country. Has anyone really thought about this for a moment?

Police training and reforms make sense. It’s always good to keep moving forward and improving.

Throw the book at bad police.

But lets have social workers available to help in the inner cities like Chicago that’s experiencing huge losses of life and life altering injuries - which are not being discussed very much here or in the press.

I believe over 2000 young people of color have died in that city alone over the past several years. Children too just playing in a park etc.

Let’s work on both together. Demonizing police. That’s easy.

[RockySoil]

And people can be trained in both social work and dealing with potential violence in a domestic dispute. Better than sending in police trained by the Israeli Defense Forces to deal with these disputes, which is what some departments do now.

[privatebanker]

In some places sure. But we are talking about the whole country. And the IDF situation is not representative of the nation.

So you envision fully trained people all required to have masters degrees in lcsw, who also have firearms and fighting tactics training, wants to be a law enforcement officer and subjected to risk of death and work nights. And find these people across the entire country - all rolled up into the same person.

I think it’s magical thinking as a nationwide response to public safety. It’s a really big place.

But what the heck it’s worth a try.

[PrdMomto1]

@ucbalumnus

That is why much of the needed social work needs to occur before the situation becomes a potentially-violent crisis that requires police attention.

Granted, domestic disputes are probably not the best example, since many of them are “hidden” until they become a potentially-violent crisis that requires police attention. But other social work issues like mental health, addiction, and homelessness are often much more noticeable before they get to the point of becoming something the police need to be called in for.

Right, but that already does happen. Programs could be expanded for sure and that would probably help. Unfortunately though you can’t force adults to get help unless they want it so a lot of mental health and addictions issues are left untreated because the person does not want treatment. But I DO believe there should be funds available to help get treatment to those who want it and for more outreach and educational programs. However, I guess I’m skeptical doing so will have a major impact on the situation we currently we have the police. I would love to see more major reform initiatives like the one in Camden.

[roethlisburger]

@Knowsstuff

@Knowsstuff
Why not aim for his legs if your going to shoot? Again, not TV.

Police never intentionally shoot anyone in the legs. They are trained always to aim for center mass. Shoot to wound is Hollywood or what you see on tv dramas.

[roethlisburger]

@greenwitch

I saw a clip of the interaction early on. He admits that he was drinking, but doesn’t want to use a breathalyzer. He says his sister lives nearby and he can just walk to her house and leave his car at Wendy’s. He says he “doesn’t want to be in violation of anything”.

His death really did not need to happen.

Let’s not forget that there was no moving violation, he was not on a public street. I think about famous people and politicians who refuse breathalyzers after a traffic stop. They are taken to the police office and charged. Or not charged and we wonder how many buried DUIs are out there. That could have happened here, but there was no traffic stop!

There was a DUI here. Unless he didn’t start drinking alcohol until he was in the Wendy’s drive-thru, he drove drunk to get there. Furthermore, as doschicos pointed out, it’s sufficient in most states, including Georgia, to prove someone was behind the wheel, had the keys, and was drunk to convict a DUI. Not being on a public street is irrelevant.

[RockySoil]

@privatebanker

In some places sure. But we are talking about the whole country. And the IDF situation is not representative of the nation.

So you envision fully trained people all required to have masters degrees in lcsw, who also have firearms and fighting tactics training, wants to be a law enforcement officer and subjected to risk of death and work nights. And find these people across the entire country - all rolled up into the same person.

I think it’s magical thinking as a nationwide response to public safety. It’s a really big place.

But what the heck it’s worth a try.

@privatebanker, I really have enjoyed your many posts in the past (usually reasonable, measured, wise) but this one is a bit off the rails. Training someone to do two different things is not impossible, and finding people wanting to help others even they may be putting themselves in danger, well police and the military already make that trade-off.

Dismissing something as magical thinking because you can’t imagine it is disingenuous.