<p>I think schools often try to take up the slack in sex education. While virtually all of the parents I’ve encountered on CC seem responsible and very involved in the lives and education of their children, not all kids are so fortunate. There are plenty of high schoolers out there whose parents simply can’t be bothered with them on the most basic day-to-day level, let alone discuss sexual issues with them. Schools try to fill a void with these classes, and sometimes do it clumsily. My girls both have found sex info sessions to be both boring and embarrassing. </p>
<p>Kristin–Your #37 post was offensive and mean-spirited, and directed at someone who did not deserve such an attack. Do what you think is right, whether that’s apologizing to your victim, or lashing out at me.</p>
<p>HH–“Not all schools hold date rape assemblies.”
In an ideal world, this information would be relayed from parent to child, and schools would never have to deal with it. Personally, I’d much prefer my girls to spend their school hours studying math, English, and science, than sitting through re-treaded assemblies on STDs, abstinence, date rape, etc. But what about the kids who never hear what they need to hear at home? I believe there are quite a few of those out there. Sad, but probably true.</p>
<p>Well I don’t believe the majority should be treated like present/future criminals and moral cripples because of the few that are/will be. But it appears many are adamant about the dire necessity for the state to step in whenever and wherever to “raise awareness” for all of our kids.</p>
<p>Hereshoping, far from being hostile to religion, I have taught Sunday school, served on the Board of Elders of a church, and given the children’s sermon on many occasions. I have been in a clown ministry, and I worked for the Catholic Charities for more than 2 years. What I am hostile to is the idea that people who aren’t religious or who practice a different religion are second-class citizens with second-class rights. This means that I support the separation of church and state, which you in the past have interpreted as an attack on religion.</p>
<p>I didn’t know that it was your son who was so “extremely upset” by the date rape assembly. I just saw it in a quotebox. My reaction was as the mother of a daughter, thinking about such an extreme emotional response.</p>
<p>It never occured to me that there would be a religious objection to a school telling young men that women have a right to say no to sex–and that there are legal consequences for violating that right. When I worked for the Catholic Charities, we were required to provide just the sort of information to the individuals that we provided services to, and had the full blessing of the nun who ran the organization to do so. And if I’m not mistaken, (but I’ll check with their moms to be sure) my male cousins have also gotten information about date rape from the brothers at the Catholic school they attend. I’m pretty sure they would have been told it’s a sin, at the very least.</p>
<p>How in God’s name did my husband, born in 1950, turn out to be a loving, gentle, tolerant, non-racist, non-bigoted, non-homophobic, non-misogynistic, non-rapist? Not even one date-rape incident! Amazing!</p>
<p>All he learned in school was spelling, reading, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trig, calculus, earth science, biology, chemistry, physics, history, English, and French. And wood shop in 7th grade. And gym. No health class. No sex-ed.</p>
<p>How is this possible?</p>
<p>Stop treating our average, everyday boys like criminals.</p>
<p>Also, your statement about my view of separation of church and state is totally false, but I’m sure not going there.</p>
<p>HH–It sounds like your husband (and mine) had the kind of wonderful, loving upbringing that all kids deserve to have, but don’t always get. Is it the school’s responsibility to teach them what their parents were too lazy or incapable of teaching? Maybe not. But, who, then?</p>
<p>Actually his upbringing was not all that great, but he’s not stupid. Just because kids come from broken families or are low income, we seem to assume that they are fundamentally stupid and AT RISK for all sorts of pathologies. I’d love to give kids more credit than that. We seem to expect the worst from them.</p>
<p>I don’t assume kids from low-income or broken families are stupid, or inately bad. Nor do I believe that kids from such families must have been somehow negelected or abused. I know of middle and upper-middle-class parents who in my humble opinion ought to be horse-whipped over their irresponsible parenting, and often it’s THEIR kids who end up in a world of trouble. My only point is that it’s important for teens to receive certain information–what they do with it is up to them. Not all of these kids are getting it from the logical source, their parents.</p>
<p>Well given what kids are up to at college lately–binge drinking, date rape, std’s galore, drugs, other risky behaviors and now extremely offensive non-pc parties, I’d say whatever information they’re getting from the schools is not being particularly helpful to them, or for some reason greater and greater numbers of kids are choosing to ignore it.</p>
<p>I’ve never been convinced of the efficacy of school sex-ed programs, or for that matter even the DARE courses in gradeschool/middleschool. But they at least represent an effort on the part of someone, anyone, to reach kids who need to be reached. The fact that they seem to have limited success is sad, but doesn’t necessarily mean they should be abandoned altogether.</p>
<p>I don’t think there’s any evidence to show that date rape is more commonly commited by men who grew up in broken or low income homes. Last I recall, rapists were pretty evenly distributed among SES. It’s not a “low class” phenomenon. This is one of the reasons that awareness education is important.</p>
<p>When I was in CCD, and the nuns told me about the commandment that says “Thou shalt not kill” it never occured to me to conceptualize it that they were accusing me of being a future murderer.</p>
<p>At any rate, I don’t think things like these parties or even date rape are more common than they were. I think it seems that way because they become common knowledge more readily than they used to, and people are more aware that these things are wrong than they used to be, and more empowered to do something about it.</p>
<p>I think that many people, both adults and teens entertain a very narrow definition of rape. They’ve watched far too many TV shows that picture a strange man stealing into the room of an unsuspecting woman in the middle of the night and forcing her into sex at knife-point, or abducting some poor woman off the jogging trail or from a poorly lit parking garage in order to do the same. </p>
<p>They don’t see any problem with plying a reluctant or “tense” date with alcohol, or enlisting a little pharmaceutical help in order get them to relax and “loosen up”. They figure that as long as she doesn’t scream, “no!”, or start kicking and scratching, she is probably “OK with it”, and doesn’t truly object to the idea of sex. They don’t understand that any grey area, any situation in which they might not have been given a clear and unequivical “yes” to the proposition of sex might place them in a legally vulnerable position. I’m sure many guys don’t ever consider that their actions might constitute rape, because they think “finessing” a woman into having sex with them is simply proof of their sexual prowess. Some guys justify their actions with all manner of excuses. They tell themselves that girls are “teases”, who make “playing hard to get” part of the game, that she actually “wants it” as bad as they do, and that once he starts, she’ll “get into it”, that she’s been flirting with him all night, and after he’s spent all that money to get her to this point, he’s “entitled”. There are a hundred variations on this theme. And many of the guys that suddenly find themselves accused of rape never see it coming. They have never been taught the legal meaning of rape. They’ve never been forced to consider the moral implications of such actions, or that they could go to jail if they aren’t careful about the circumstances in which they place themselves.</p>
<p>I agree, that in a perfect world, all boys would be taught these things in loving homes by knowledgeable parents. But too often, it just doesn’t happen. Too often, the “sex talk” never ventures into the realm of date rape. Too often, parents are just as ignorant of what constitutes rape as their sons and daughters.</p>
<p>I also agree that it’s terribly irresponsible of any school system to single out the boys for such talks, and leave the girls in the lurch. It’s just as important for girls (ALL GIRLS) to understand how to avoid situations in which they might be raped, how to be unequivocal in expressing their consent (or lack thereof) when it comes to sex. How to take ownership of their own bodies, and responsibility for their own actions as well.</p>
<p>When I read posts like no. 56 (by unregistered), I simply shudder. It’s obvious from the statements he quoted that an unacceptable number of boys still enter college with extreme ignorance concerning date rape. And this common ignorance ofen results in a lot of lives being ruined.</p>
<p>Women are victims and are not capable of saying “no” to alcohol or drugs?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The world of interpersonal relations in which you live is certainly much more cut-and-dried than the one I experienced in college. “Yes” and “no” would be nice, but the reality is far more nuanced, isn’t it?</p>
<p><a href=“…”>quote</a>They tell themselves that girls are “teases”, who make “playing hard to get” part of the game, that she actually “wants it” as bad as they do, (…)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Some women are “teases.” Some women approach men in a blatantly sexual way. And some women resent being made to sign a consensual sex agreement before a date. </p>
<p>Look, I don’t argue that what you describe happens. A young woman alone with a young man in the presence of a “romantic mood” and alcohol does not grant the man a license for sex, but it also does not absolve the women of all responsibility.</p>
<p>This will sound horribly amusing and improbable to a lot of you, but if kids wait until after marriage to have sex, young men wouldn’t have to be mind readers, and neither would young women.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>And some women don’t know they were raped until they sober up and decide they made a mistake. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The Washington State criminal code says:</p>
<p>RCW 9A.44.040
Rape in the first degree.</p>
<p>(1) A person is guilty of rape in the first degree when such person engages in sexual intercourse with another person by forcible compulsion where the perpetrator or an accessory:</p>
<pre><code> (a) Uses or threatens to use a deadly weapon or what appears to be a deadly weapon; or
(b) Kidnaps the victim; or
(c) Inflicts serious physical injury, including but not limited to physical injury which renders the victim unconscious; or
(d) Feloniously enters into the building or vehicle where the victim is situated.
</code></pre>
<p>(1) A person is guilty of rape in the second degree when, under circumstances not constituting rape in the first degree, the person engages in sexual intercourse with another person:</p>
<pre><code> (a) By forcible compulsion;
(b) When the victim is incapable of consent by reason of being physically helpless or mentally incapacitated;
</code></pre>
<p>(some clauses irrelevant to college-age people deleted)</p>
<p>(1) A person is guilty of rape in the third degree when, under circumstances not constituting rape in the first or second degrees, such person engages in sexual intercourse with another person, not married to the perpetrator:</p>
<pre><code> (a) Where the victim did not consent as defined in RCW 9A.44.010(7), to sexual intercourse with the perpetrator and such lack of consent was clearly expressed by the victim’s words or conduct, or
(b) Where there is threat of substantial unlawful harm to property rights of the victim.
</code></pre>
<p>The legal definition of consent:</p>
<p>(7) “Consent” means that at the time of the act of sexual intercourse or sexual contact there are actual words or conduct indicating freely given agreement to have sexual intercourse or sexual contact.</p>
<hr>
<p>Although I am not a lawyer, it seems that the code says that unless there was force involved, or the victim was legally mentally incapicitated (I doubt this means merely drunk), there is no rape, unless the victim explicitly said “No.” Silence combined with consensual conduct would seem to be consent (in the absence of force or the threat of force) in the Washington state code. Is that what you were thinking of when you referred to a legal definition of “rape”?</p>
<p>EDIT: Mea culpa. I’m sure there is a ton of relevant case law, I just don’t know what it is, and I’m too tired/don’t care enough to fire up Lexis and look it up. I welcome the correction of knowledgeable criminal attorneys.</p>
<p>With all due respect, and I absolutely do respect you <em>and</em> your views, young women can be equally manipulative when it comes to sexual activity. Is it possible for a girl to be coerced and manipulated into sexual activity? Sure. But it’s also possible in the reverse, and then, unfortunately, the young woman holds all the cards. I know of a recent incident in which a young man had his first sexual experience with a very persuasive girl. The boy subsequently severed the relationship (for reasons unrelated to the sexual activity), and months later, angered by his rejection, the girl cried “date rape,” and made this kid’s life a living HELL until he was later exonerated of all wrongdoing. </p>
<p>There is also the issue of regret AFTERWARD that was CLEARLY not there at the time of the events–how does that factor in?</p>
<p>
And many guys who suddenly find themselves accused of rape did no such thing. Unfortunately, this very much hurts the cases of legitimate rape that are reported and discourages the reporting of legitimate rape cases.</p>
<p>This type of manipulating/coercing/stretching the gray areas can be done on BOTH sides of the gender fence, and as a mom of three boys and three girls, I want to make sure that all of my kids understand this fully.</p>
<p>Best to stay out of the gray areas unless you are prepared to deal with the consequences.</p>
<p>HH: i’m in the same boat as your son. i’ve been to assemblies like that and felt outraged that they thought I needed this information. it’s insulting to think that someone might think i’d be in a situation with a potential criminal.</p>
<p>i agree with most of the above posters. you seem to have an open dialogue with your son (cherish that…i wish i had one with my parents). perhaps you could explain to him why this assembly was necessary so he didn’t have to feel so alienated. </p>
<p>talk is cheap. kudos to your son’s school for actually doing something about a problem that is way too evident in today’s society. by educating kids, even the kids that will probably never be in those situations, his school is at least trying to do its part in raising the bar of what is socially acceptable nowadays. </p>
<p>if nothing else, your son probably learned something from that assembly. he may even have the opportunity to help a girl friend out in the future or tell his guy friends that it’s not okay to pressure your date into having sex with you. maybe this outrage sparked an interest in him to become a peer outreach minister and go around teaching other teenagers about what he learned. </p>
<p>i’m sure if you two find a way to put a positive spin on this assembly, he’ll be glad he attended it.</p>
<p>“young women can be equally manipulative when it comes to sexual activity.”</p>
<p>Oh absolutely, I totally agree! Sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that girls never bear any responsibility for the sex that can occur in these “grey area” situations. That’s why it’s imperative for BOTH boys and girls to be taught about the dangers inherent in situations where allegations of date rape are possible. And as I said above, I think it’s very important for girls to “take ownership of their own bodies, and responsibility for their own actions as well.” </p>
<p>Hey, I have one of each, a son AND a daughter. I would be heartbroken if either of them was ever to find themselves in a date rape scenario. I have talked with my daughter about being mindful of the particulars of any social situation that might lend itself to date rape, to make informed decisions, not to leave a beverage unattended, to abstain from excess alcohol consumption, to be clear and honest with both herself AND a potential partner concerning any decision to engage in sex. I totally agree that it’s “best to stay out of the gray areas unless you are prepared to deal with the consequences.”, advice that’s equally valuable for both sexes.</p>
<p>While I was typing this, it occurred to me that I’ve left the “man to man talk”, the one about sex entirely up to my husband where my 16 year old son is concerned. But now, I see that it’s extremely important for me to have one of those talks with him as well. Sheepishly, I’ll admit to never previously having this topic on my radar in relation to my son. He’s never been on a date, or attended an unchaperoned coed party. As far as I know, he’s never even kissed a girl (shhhh…don’t tell him I said that). He’s of the species, “Geekus Extremis”, with his head occupied by FLASH, HTML, and WWII First Person Shooter games alot of the time. But, he has admitted to “crushes” on certain girls in the past. He’s as potentially vulnerable to some of the situtions Washdad has described as any other boy. And it is certainly true that some girls are extremely manipulative and not above using sexual situations to ruin a young man’s life. </p>
<p>Joev, have you had that talk with one of your parents? If so, how did it go?</p>
<p>Wasn’t there a recent study showing that there was less drug use now among kids but greater drug use among older adults? Maybe the parents need to attend an assembly and give the kids the day off.</p>
<p>Wether or not the schools should be in the social engineering business poses a dilemma for me. The fact of the matter is that there can be a high social cost to individual behavior. For example, teenage mothers use more social services than older mothers. More people die each year from drunk driving than were killed on 9/11.</p>
<p>Schools have always taught values along with the 3 R’s. And with all those kids in the same place, it SEEMS like a good place to address sex, drugs , alcohol, etc.</p>
<p>But some of the people who run these programs are just God-awful. After a couple of DARE presentations in his elementary school, it took us a while to convince our son that it was OK to take prescription medicine and there was nothing inherently wrong about it.</p>
<p>The freshman in his college had to attend a rape prevention assembly. The speaker pronounced that every woman in the audience would be raped at least once in their lifetime. It’s one thing to get someone’s attention, but overstating the case does not help build legitimacy for the rest of the presentation.</p>
<p>Going back to the OP, I see where they were planning to have schoolwide discussions over the incident. Wow, was that really necessary? That presumes that everybody has the potential of making some crude racist display.</p>
<p>“I see where they were planning to have schoolwide discussions over the incident. Wow, was that really necessary? That presumes that everybody has the potential of making some crude racist display.”</p>
<p>I don’t know what their thinking is, but there’s more than one reason to have a discussion. People running a college might want students to talk about it as a way of understanding and getting past the incident, not just to tell everybody not to wear blackface and a noose.</p>
<p>“I see where they were planning to have schoolwide discussions over the incident. Wow, was that really necessary? That presumes that everybody has the potential of making some crude racist display.”</p>
<p>No, it presumes that everybody has the potential of remaining silent in the face of some crude racist display.</p>
Yeah my dad gave me that talk back in 1986 when I was 9 or so, and it resonated. I am one of the “nice guys” when it comes to women, so unfortunately I don’t get as many dates as I should, because I don’t ask out every woman I see, or try to make them uncomfortable. Women love bad boys, and aggressive types, but as hard as I try, I am just too lazy to be like that and have a fear of rejection. If you saw me in real life, you would think I was the nicest guy in the world poetsheart, but you would never go out with me, because somehow we would get caught in the friend zone. AHHHH! You kinda hit a nerve, as I have been dealing with this problem for 18 years now, early on I used alcohol to cope, but you see where that got me, I lost the love of my life because of drinking and I might be incapable of falling in love again.</p>