Anthropologist experiences freshman year

Parent Cafe
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<p>Anthropologist Rebekah Nathan (a pseudonym) spent a year as a freshman at a public university and describes her findings in the book, “My Freshman Year: What a Professor Learned by Becoming a Student.”</p>

<p>The school in which she enrolled as a freshman (2002-2003 academic year) is a public university with ten thousand students.</p>

<p>She describes the college students she encounters as being pragmatic and lacking in intellectual curiosity. In fact, she claims, “I never once overheard what I would term a political or philosophical discussion.” As an anthropologist, she sees this as an indication that, for students, the attractions of the college culture “have very little to do with either intellectual life or formal instruction.”</p>

<p>This lack of interest in academics is supported by the statistics she provides on the amount of time students typically spend on their studies:</p>

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Students are able to get by with so little studying because of their ability to “manage” college – limiting their workload by prudent course selection, doing only the bare minimum necessary to get through their courses, cheating in some cases – so that they have time for whatever activities they find compelling.</p>

<p>As an example, she states, “For most papers that an undergraduate will complete, the window of time that the student typically creates to write a paper is a few days, at most a week, and more likely one evening.”</p>

<p>Ms. Nathan also discusses the challenges of creating a feeling of community at the university. Today’s students are individuals who prefer the freedom to choose over the demands required of being a member of a group. For example, the idea of a common freshman seminar failed at her university. While the administration wanted to provide the incoming freshman with a common experience (that of reading and discussing a book), only one-third of freshmen read the book and no one was interested in participating in the group discussion. The freshmen resented the imposition on their time.</p>

<p>In an era when students arrive at the dorm with their own computers, TVs, VCRs and cell phones, collective living is losing out to more individualized living arrangements. Socializing occurs in private rooms, not public spaces; community participation is equated with having a small personal network of friends.</p>

<p>It can be hard for individuals to find their niche. Ms. Nathan cites the experiences of international students, who “learned quickly that being student, being a dorm mate, being a classmate – none of it automatically qualifies you as a “member of the community,” that is, someone whom others will seek out for activities.”</p>

<h2>Ms. Nathan finds that, for college students, it is the cultural norm to be unengaged academically. The college experience is valued as a rite of passage – but the value of a four years outside the mores of society is challenged by the fact that institutions of higher learning are being run more and more like businesses.</h2>

<p>Okay – do I spend $40K a year to send my child away for this??!!</p>

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<p>I could see how someone may develop this idea. My children, all of them, have received a much better h.s. education than I did.Many kids look at college as simply the next educational step, a given. I think today often the kids going to college are a little weary of being pushed academically. Many , I think, are confident they can achieve in the classroom. So they look for other aspects of college life to satisfy other needs. For example, we recently looked at a college and the profs impressed me as being professional, cosmopolitan, articulate, with it, etc… So, we put the academics aside and really looked at the campus to see how it would meet our sons other needs, the sports facilities, athletics, clubs, student body, etc. These aspects of college life are as important to us as the authors who come to lecture. </p>

<p>One thing however, there are many bright, articulate, educated and amazing kids in college and I would caution anyone against generalizations just because of one author’s opinion of his research.</p>

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<p>From this website, <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=115867[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=115867&lt;/a&gt;

Northern Arizona State costs less than $10k per year, according to USNWR from 2004. You would not be spending $40k per year there. The SAT 25/75 percentile is 950-1180 – many of these students may not have been completely engaged in high school, but at least they are trying to earn a college degree.</p>

<p>This is a very different environment than what I think you’d find at a more selective college, either public or private. To some extent, it is competitive because motivated students want to attend college with similar kids. This is the tricky part of finding the right fit for a student – as a parent, I’m willing to pay the $45 a year it costs for my son’s selective private college. You couldn’t pay me to send him to a school that did not meet his academic needs. Before I get into trouble with this statement, let me add that I’m not implying that only selective colleges are worthwhile – they’re really meant for a unique type of student, whose needs would not be met at a different kind of school.</p>

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<p>backhandgrip – The author emphasizes that what she describes is the prevailing culture, and, indeed, she is a big fan of those students who are confident enough to act contrary to the norm.</p>

<p>sjmom2329 – I hope you are right that a more selective college would have a different atmosphere. But bright, motivated students can still be pragmatic, and be more interested in having fun than being intellectually engaged. </p>

<p>I would be interested in hearing from anyone with statistics or other indicators that LACs buck the trends described in this book – the statistics that she quotes are nationwide, after all, and all students are influenced by the larger culture.</p>

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<p>The professor was looking at the University through an adult’s perspective. Of course the classes wouldn’t be intellectually challenging to her, she had already “been there-done that”. The same goes for dorm life and the whole college culture issue. For a freshman away from home for the first time it’s an entirely different experience.</p>

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<p>Actually, the professor took a full load of courses (all outside her area of expertise) and found that she was not a straight A student.</p>

<p>She wasn’t speaking of classes that weren’t intellectually challenging (they were) – she was observing students who weren’t interested in spending time being intellectually challenged.</p>

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<p>fendrock; You don’t have to remind me about those brillant IQ kids who are ‘contrary to the norm.’ I have one of those, too. It takes all kinds.</p>

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<p>I’m paying 40k+ for my S’s college education. I don’t recognize his college or his experience in many of the quotes by Prof. Small (aka Nathan). It does not mean that her observations are inacurate, just that they do not apply to all institutions of higher education or all college students. </p>

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<p>There’s a lot of education that takes place outside the formal context of the classroom or the lab. Some has to do with extra-curriculars. For example, many people who have gotten involved in NGOs were deeply involved in community service while in college. Saturday Night Live and the Simpsons boast a large number of Harvard alumni, most of whom spent every spare minute at the Lampoon. Many journalists, for their part, spent their spare time writing for the Harvard Crimson. And so on and so forth.<br>
Still, since not every student is totally immersed in ECs, it is very possible to overhear students breaking out in discussions of literature or philosophy or math and physics (Coureur has one such anecdote on the Harvard thread. I assume these observations apply to many other top universities).</p>

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<p>Well, Ms. Nathan is obviously not teaching at Chicago or Columbia. S is taking a freshman seminar (1 of 100+). While this plethora of seminars may not create a feeling of community among the 1600+ freshmen, it is certainly intellectually stimulating for the 11 students enrolled in the one that my S is taking.</p>

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<p>I wish Ms. Nathan did not indulge in generalizations on the basis of one university. My S appears to me fully engaged academically, as are members of his study group and the kids in his dorm. </p>

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<p>Well, my S and his friends must belong to the 1/3 who spend well above 1 hour of homework for every hour spent in class. He is finding that the advice “3 hours of homework for every hour of class” holds true for him.</p>

<p>The moral of this is not to fall for generalizations either about schools, student bodies, and individual students.</p>

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<p>Ditto – my son seems to be fully engaged, intellectually stimulated, and has found a community of friends that I expect he will know forever. In fact, I don’t think he wants to come home at all, except for the holidays.

I’m sure that this factor is dependent on which college, what major and who the student is. My son, a physics major, is finding his classes to be quite challenging. He’s getting good grades (as far as we know!) but I also know that his workload is intense, and is likely to continue that way. And that’s just the way we like it. </p>

<p>Finally, Marite’s point about generalizations is true, in my opinion. I hate to see an entire generation of college students painted with the same brush. The only way that this “study” would have any meaning is if it were conducted at a number of schools, of varying levels of selectivity, size and culture. To some extent, it seems like a lazy way to take a sabattical, and get a book out of the experience.</p>

<p>As for philosophical discussions, I know for a fact that S1 had heated philosophical debates with classmates over lunch in HS (they had to be shushed by the moderator) and S2 is active in the philosophy club at his school. As I mentioned on another thread, I could actually go for a little less intellectual questioning and a little more vacuous entertainment.</p>

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<p>marite – good point about involvement in extracurriculars</p>

<p>So, is there hope for engaging kids intellectually if they are not naturally inclined to act contrary to the trends described by Nathan?</p>

<p>And is it only at highly selective schools that this is more the norm?</p>

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<p>I am sure that there are many highly intellectual kids at many state universities. The good thing about many state universities is that they are so large that you can find representatives of pretty much any kind of group, however defined. That would include students who are highly focused on academics. I have no real opinion about Northern Arizona State, having never heard of it before. It is probably a notch below Arizona State and the University of Arizona. The latter was the subject of a very unflattering profile in a NYT Higher Education supplement a few months ago.
Lack of engagement in studies does not seem to be a problem at Chicago (“where the fun goes to die”), MIT (“where students don’t know how to have fun,” according to an MIT prof) and other similarly challenging schools. I doubt, however, that Chicago, MIT and those other schools draw from the same pool of applicants as Northern AZ State. But whether a student will be attracted to a challenging academic environment or one in which it is possible to spend 4 years being the life of the party is very much an individual thing.</p>

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<p>Hi all, I’m the author and thought I’d respond to “fendrock’s” gracious invitation to weigh in. It’s important to not take points out of context of the whole book. There are a lot of qualifiers in what I observed. Yes, I found that outside of class, there was little informal talk of philosophy of life or politics. But I didn’t find that true of specific sub-cultures of students, such as women’s and ethnic studies students, environmental activists, evangelicals and many others. It is a characteristic of undergraduate culture, rather than a characteristic of individual students, many of whom resist these pressures. I also found that most students said they came to the university to learn (it’s just that 65% of what they said they learned happened outside the formal classroom.) Would they take the degree if you just handed it to them? Absolutely not (at least more than two-thirds said they wouldn’t). My overall reaction to students was not cynical. As a matter of fact, the major result for me of being a student was that I was excited about undergraduate teaching again. I think I understand better that part of the reason for students’ occasional disengagement may be that the way I teach is not the way they learn. I am spending my time now trying to be a better teacher—by responding to what I saw in student culture. For me, that means I try to connect what I do in the classroom to what goes on outside (since this seems to engage them more) and de-centering myself in the classroom in favor of peer involvement (less lecture, more hands on, problem-centered, and group-oriented learning)</p>

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<p>Many thanks for posting! I’ve observed my son’s math enrichment classes over the years and have been struck by the difference in the “lecturing” styles of guest speakers. Some are far more willing to let students take the lead than others in moving the discussion forward, to tolerate digressions from the main point, etc…</p>

<p>I have an issue with one of your statements, however:</p>

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<p>Why generalize about undergraduates? How many adults outside of academia spend any time discussing Leibniz or Wittgenstein (or have ever heard of either?) I do recollect from my own college days that discussions of some philosophical concept, or of some work of fiction, might arise at the oddest of moments. For instance, driving to NYC, we were trying to keep ourselves entertained by thinking up limericks, and somehow, we ended up discussing Enlightenment philosophers. I doubt that today’s undergraduates are much different than we were.</p>

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<p>One skill I want my child to develop is critical thinking. A good college helps develop this by engaging students intellectually.</p>

<p>Philosophical, political, etc. discussions are a sign that a person is not only able to think critically, but likes to do so (a good thing!)</p>

<p>College is a time to focus on the development of these skills. I hope that college students think and discuss many topics that won’t come up once they leave academia. After all, they are deciding on how they will support themselves, what kind of people they are – this, in my mind, is important work done at college, and some college activities contribute more to the development of thinking, responsible adults than others.</p>

<p>Some kids arrive at college ready to participate in discussions, focus on their coursework, participate in ECs that have real meaning to them personally – others do not.</p>

<p>Which/what kind of colleges can take the kids who are focused on fun and lifestyle and help develop them into critical thinkers?</p>

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<p>William Stein is a brilliant young mathematician who was drifting around the country in dead-end minimum wage jobs until he began attending Northern Arizona State university. </p>

<p>He started studying computer science until a chance encounter in a book store sparked an interest in theoretical mathematics. He wound up changing majors, and staying an extra year at Northern Arizona U. to better prepare (with faculty support and guidance) for a top grad school. He got into UC Berkeley, got his Ph.D. and then became an assistant professor at Harvard, where his classes attracted many of the strongest students. He is now a tenured associate professor at UCSD, which has an excellent math department.</p>

<p>So a motivated individual who is willing to take initiative CAN get a good education even at a place like NAU.</p>

<p><a href=“http://modular.ucsd.edu/[/url]”>http://modular.ucsd.edu/&lt;/a&gt; is Prof. Stein’s website. To read his fascinating and enlightening personal history, you can click on personal and “brief autobiography.” </p>

<p>Here are a few excerpts from his years as a student at Northern Arizona U:</p>

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<p>His “short autobiography” at <a href=“http://modular.ucsd.edu/Biography.html[/url]”>http://modular.ucsd.edu/Biography.html&lt;/a&gt; is quite vivid and fascinating, especially his early years before college. I highly recommend it. </p>

<p>It is a great example of how a bright and curious student can find inspiration and guidance even at a place like NAU.</p>

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<p>I very much want to second Wisteria’s point. At state universities, one can find many different kinds of students.
Students who want to develop their critical skills should look for classes that challenge them, including from profs whose ideas they think they will disagree with, and they should take classes outside their major area of interest. Some classes can be large lecture classes but should have discussion sections or small classes organized seminar- style. The classes should also emphasize writing and, depending on the class, independent research.
By the way, William Stein left Harvard last year so my S has not taken a class with him, but S heard him give a lecture on cryptography a couple of years ago that really fired him. He could not stop talking about it at lunch.</p>

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I think that this is a very interesting thought. The summary of the study at NAU seems to imply that the college environment makes the student – the presence or lack of stimulating or philosophical conversations determine his or her intellectual growth. It is as if the student is a blank slate, unable to break out of whatever mold is available to him, based on HS performance.</p>

<p>Yet the quotation by William Stein shows a student who is able to research options once a passion has been discovered – one who shapes his environment to meet his needs. He makes a series of decisions to get where he really wants to be. His road was a little more circuitous and lengthy, but clearly worked out well.</p>

<p>The reason I find this interesting is that so many of us here at CC try to ensure that our children end up at the most selective college that meets their needs, with the idea that the student body will influence their development – that’s certainly how I looked at the process. Yet, obviously, there are students who aren’t ready to enter that kind of college when they are 17 or 18, and take a little more time to find their place. So, this seems to be the crux of the debate about selective/private colleges vs. public/merit aid schools. The bottom line is that you can’t really predict how kids will turn out, and as parents we should give them some space to find their own way.</p>

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<p>I am sure a few very motivated students can do well in almost any environment. I would not think it would be very easy at NAU. I know a little about NAU and it is not surprising that intellectual conversations are rare, many students don’t study a lot and have some difficulty developing an appreciation for academics. NAU has a very high admissions rate and an average SAT under 1000. I truely loved the years I lived in Arizona, but I also have to say that it was the least cultured and intellectual area I have lived in. Like many other parents who haunt this forum, I do so because I have a kid with a lot of academic successes, interests and drive. Our whole family became absorbed in the college selection and admissions process and now we are trying to handle the costs of an expensive private university. I can’t help but wonder if things would have been different if we had continued to live in Arizona. Almost certainly my D would have been less interested in school. I do know for sure that she would have been around fewer kids with academic interests and she would not have had the opportunities she had growing up in the suburban northeast.</p>

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<p>Marite, you ask why generalize about undergraduates? An ethnography such as the one that I did is not so much a generalization about undergraduates as it is a case study in undergraduate culture. I tried to describe the day-to-day culture in which I participated, not the particular students I met. Many students actually feel different from the culture itself–as if they’re bucking the culture by being more interested than most in political or intellectual issues. I can add from my own experience to the examples of engaged students that many of you describe.</p>

<p>The notable thing, from my point of view, is that the university was not as it appears to itself: a hotbed of political and intellectual ideas, a community of scholars, even a place where newspapers are read. At least, it isn’t that way in the informal culture of undergraduate life. (And by the way, I agree with you that adults are no different.) </p>

<p>Most people are talking about their social life, entertainment, weekend plans, etc. I think most undergraduates around the country would find that familiar, even though many particular students don’t behave that way. I do try, though, not to paint all students with one brush. One of the funnier incidents in my book concerns the way I came to take on some of the undergraduate cultural ways. Studying for a French test with a study-buddy, I told my buddy to skip a set of questions he asked me because “it wasn’t on the test.” He responded by chiding me (“don’t you want to learn French?”), and I was really embarrassed to realize that I had taken to the same shortcuts as most classmates. Obviously, his reaction (to tease me and urge me to answer the questions anyhow) was instructive—individuals don’t always perform their culture. But both of us knew that what I was doing was standard fare. </p>

<p>And for those of you who are pointing the finger at NAU. Hold up. Students love the school, and professors truly believe in teaching there. Our average SATs are not below 1000, and as a matter of fact most of our students were in the top quarter of their class. My description is not, I believe, about this school. That’s why I called the school AnyU in my book. I’ve had students write me from around the country to say that my book resonated with them (but the hard work part of my book too!) My description is probably least on target for a small liberal arts college, but many others will find it familiar as a culture.</p>

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<p>Rebekah:
I confess that I have not read your book and that I am going by the excerpts quoted on CC and in reviews.<br>
I understand that your description of undergraduate culture probably applies to many schools, but it does not seem to apply to MIT or Harvard or Chicago, or many other such schools.
I live in Cambridge, MA, so I am familiar with MIT and Harvard, and it seems to me that the undergraduate cultures there are different from the one you describe in your book. They are certainly different from each other.
An MIT prof described MIT to my S as the place where “students have no fun;” Chicago, of course, is famous for being the place “where fun comes to die.” Harvard students do not exude the same intensity, except perhaps in their ECs. But I doubt that the 1,000 students enrolled in Michael Sandel’s course on Justice this fall refrain from discussing what they’re learned in class outisde of the classroom.<br>
Different colleges do have different cultures. I would rather we discussed different undergraduate cultures in the plural rather than making blanket statements about a single undergraduate culturethat applies to AnyU, even while acknowledging individual exceptions. That was the point I was trying to make.</p>