<p>exactly, tarhunt!</p>
<p>But I am just responding to thjose who have expressed that somehow the kid or his family is unethical by not withdrawing apps</p>
<p>tarhunt and barbar: IF and only IF everything is above the table, and Billy concents, then I agree with you. </p>
<p>In the scenario we’re talking about, that is not the case. I don’t get the sense from AdOfficer that in the real world everything is above the table. I heard </p>
<p>“if they hear from your counselor you’re getting in to one of those schools and that you are a better fit for that school or prefer it, they won’t waste the spot on you.”</p>
<p>I don’t see the part that you the student ok’d such a call, and I do hear AdOfficer claiming that its not their fault if the GC’s make such a call, which implies that he/she thinks that its the GC who is being unethical, but that the university is free to use such information to their own advantage anyway. </p>
<p>Which part exactly am I misconstruing?</p>
<p>vin2l:</p>
<p>You’re jumping to a low-probability conclusion. You took the fact that the counselor called to mean that the kid she’s talking about doesn’t know about the call and has not, explicitly or implicitly, agreed. There is nothing in what AdOfficer said that tells us anything at all about “Billy” or what he wants. You jumped to the conclusion that Billy and his parents don’t know about this. I think that’s such a low-probability conclusion that it can almost be ruled out. I can assure you that any GC from an expensive private school would be quickly fired the minute some parent called to ask why their particular “Billy” was rejected and learned that the GC called and, basically, withdrew the app.</p>
<p>That’s just not how this game is played. It is a game, and the private schools tend to play it very well. But it’s a collaborative game on the part of the students and parents, very much in line with games theory. It’s not a zero sum game.</p>
<p>Neither of us know the particulars of Billy and Fred. In the absence of real knowledge, a high-probability guess is the best we can do. I believe my guess is MUCH higher probability than yours, based on years of experience with college admissions.</p>
<p>Tarhunt, I think you are likely correct. I’ll concede very likely. I appreciate your comments.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t mind hearing confirmation from AdOfficer though if he/she hasn’t totally taken offense to me. </p>
<p>And poor Billy’s girlfriend. On valentine’s day nonetheless. Maybe she’s a better fit for Fred at Tufts. :-)</p>
<p>The call is just a different version of what a lot of people at my school do. A lot of kids (including myself) who are accepted EA are encouraged to withdraw their other apps, as long as that EA school is their first choice. In my case it was…I withdrew my others, because there’s really no point in competing unnecessarily. As long as the kids know what’s going on, what’s the problem?</p>
<p>vin:</p>
<p>I know this probably won’t matter to you much, but I’m impressed. It’s very rare for people to change their minds once they’ve committed to something. Good for you. </p>
<p>I will say that I do agree with you on one thing. If some crazy GC took it on him/herself to tell a college to turn a kid down because he had been accepted elsewhere, it would be very, very wrong. That’s not a decision a GC should be making.</p>
<p>Thanks tarhunt. It does matter to me, and the impressed part is mutual. You provide a lot of insight.</p>
<p>The thing is, this sort of things is necessary at the most prestigious BS like andover, exeter, Choate, hotchkiss and such. Think about it… Every year we have 30% of the kids going to ivies…basically the top 50-60% are more or less admissible to the ultra competitive colleges anyway… and they deserve it anyway…they will most likely be at the top 10% at any other schools… but even though colleges take so many kids from us and know that most of the kids who apply are capable, there is still a max number, they have to take kids from other schools… diversity is important… So without this sort of “gaming” if you would like to call it… All the top 20% will get into all the collges that they apply to, screwing the rest of the kids over…while the other kids are more than capable to go anyway…but why do they care, because the school itself is a preslected group anyway, i mean, with an average SSAT of 93 percentile…(and SSAT itself is more self selective than SAT anyway, only the kids who apply to boarding schools take SSAT)…this is a way that the most prestigious boarding school can survive and continue to attract the talents from across the country. I was the first in my class before I went to Hotchkiss… and i knew i probably wont even make top 10% or 20% if I go there…but if I would be screwed in the process being in a much lower percentile, I wouldnt even have gone…but I knew that they have a much higher admit rate than any schools…even the kid way down the roster get into really selective colleges, thanks to our excellent college counselling office; that’s the reason I went, and I know that being in the top 30% now, I have as good a shot as I would have being at top 1% at my old public school</p>
<p>with this sort of “gaming”, the admit are more spread out and more highly capable and deserving kids get into highly selective colleges</p>
<p>and why do i say even kids down the roster “deserve” to go to a highly selective colleges?</p>
<p>do you have any idea how hard it is to be at the top here? let me give you some insight</p>
<p>last year, half of our honors chem class took the AP test, all but around 3 kids scored 5s</p>
<p>the real AP class is all 5s except for 2 kids (i just use AP chem as an example coz i know the numbers)</p>
<p>3rd year spanish here is AP (as opposed to 4th or 5th year at other schools), and most kids here do score 5s,and you need 3rd year language to graduate…</p>
<p>The average SAT score is around 2150 (that’s including athletic recruits who usually bring down the average)</p>
<p>our school’s acceptance rate is 20%, that’s including all the developmental and legacy cases…everyone who got in went through serious screening and only 1 out of 5 got in anyway</p>
<p>Kids who take the AP are supposed to get a 5, a 4 is a disgrace…a 3 means that you would have failed the course anyway</p>
<p>bearcats…even if you are in the middle of your class at a place like choate, hotchkiss, groton, exeter, harvard westlake, you still have a huge advantage compared to kids in public schools…please do not cry about how hard it is at a prep school or boarding school…even if you aren’t paying to be there, a C+ at choate can get you into some of the best schools in the country. </p>
<p>funny thing is, so many of us in admissions don’t believe kids at these schools work any harder than kids at public schools :)</p>
<p>“please do not cry about how hard it is at a prep school or boarding school…”</p>
<p>i m not whining about that, i m just saying, the game of spreading “admits” out is neccessary to keep these schools in the running</p>
<p>“please do not cry about how hard it is at a prep school or boarding school…”</p>
<p>i m not whining about that, i m just saying, the game of spreading “admits” out is neccessary to keep these schools in the running</p>
<p>“please do not cry about how hard it is at a prep school or boarding school…”</p>
<p>i m not whining about that, i m just saying, the game of spreading “admits” out is neccessary to keep these schools in the running</p>
<p>You’re kidding, right AdOfficer, about the not working hard part? May I invite you to spend a week at St. Paul’s?</p>
<p>I do understand where vin was coming from. This game is hard to fathom. It goes back a century and a half when most top preps just called HY and P to let them know which of their grads they’d be getting. While I think it’s mostly on the up and up, is there any doubt in any of our minds that the very rich are looked at differently at all schools? Well, maybe not Caltech!</p>
<p>i agree with SPSstudent, mind i remind you that hotchkiss was established as a prep school for yale under the support of the yale president at the time?</p>
<p>yeah guys, i know you work hard…but your schools have <em>very elitist attitudes</em> when it comes to “rigor”…somehow, public school kids simply don’t measure up to you guys in the eyes of your college counselors (and many parents). i am telling you, quite frankly, that often times students from prestigious boarding schools and prep schools are not the most compelling applicants…you are getting very good educations at your respectful schools, but saint paul’s (and I have spent some time there, btw) and exeter and choate and etc, etc, etc, are not the only rigorous schools in the country, despite what your college counselors tell you (and everyone else that listens).</p>
<p>read my post again…i didn’t say public school kids work <em>harder</em> than prep kids…i simply implied that a lot of us in the admissions world don’t believe all the hype that your college counselors throw at us. yes, saint paul’s and exeter and hotchkiss are excellent schools, but they aren’t the only ones!</p>
<p>And one other thing…I will agree with you, SPSstudent, that at many institutions rich kids are looked at differently…that’s why I work where I do - we really don’t care if you can buy us a building! Keep in mind, though, that a lot of admissions decisions are based on opportunities - in other words, we want to know what you have done with the advantages or opportunities you have had. If you go to Saint Paul’s and do nothing there, don’t engage with the faculty, and don’t take advantage of the resources of the school, chances are you aren’t getting in to a lot of places. If you are dirt poor and have great recs, do engage, and show us you are milking the opportunity to be at SPS for all its worth, we are going to be impressed!</p>
<p>And, just for the record, I actually love SPS. A lot of my favorite students (and classmates in college!) are SPS grads 
Bummer about the flood last year…</p>
<p>Wow, AdOfficer, do you sleep?</p>
<p>Hey prep school dudes, we in the competitive publics work incredibly hard without quite the same coddled support network that you have. Plus we get to meet people from all walks of life, including pothead losers, druggies, rich, poor, gay, straight, some full of life, and some sadly depressed. All kinds of people show up everywhere in life, I figure I might as well learn how to deal with them. A lot of people in my district really can’t afford to live here, but they squeeze in and spend every penny on housing just to be in this district for the education. Many have no hope of paying full freight to college. Brainy kids nonetheless and I have a lot of respect for most of them. </p>
<p>Additionally, we have family and community responsibilities like shovelling and chopping this backbreaking snow mixed with ice like we had yesterday, or babysitting younger siblings because while we had a snow day, most parents didn’t. I did my elderly neighbors house too. I don’t get community service for it, but she made delicious date squares. I’m not complaining, I know I’m very fortunate (did I mention those yummy date squares), and I wouldn’t trade places with you. </p>
<p>Maybe I can start a competitive snow shovelling league and use it as an EC. Its a lot harder than rowing!</p>
<p>but may i say i actually went to a competitive public before I went to hotchkiss…
i used to be top of my class, worked kinda hard…
then i ended up at hotchkiss,where i work more than twice as hard, and i m still barely within top 30%…
having experienced both, I have to say teachers demand so much more here</p>
<p>like for my last AP Physics C test…my teacher gave us an old AP mechanics test…and graded it according to the AP guidelines. On that AP, 54% would get you a 5…but if you score 54% on that test, you would have gotten an F, and the teacher doesnt curve anyway, since there are kids scoring well in the 90s.</p>
<p>and 35% of the kids are on financial aid , we constantly take the very top kid from innercity schools…</p>