“That said, many elite schools, especially ones that recruit a lot of athletes, often do offer excellent tutoring and support services.”
That’s true but the OP said non-athletes right? So I don’t know how discussion of athletes fit into what the OP was asking, unless you mean that non-athletes can benefit from the same services, which is a good point.
“Oh…and maybe very tippy top grades.”
OP said bottom of class and few honors classes, so these are not the 4.0, straight across the board with a bunch of APs.
“I seriously doubt that any one in the 24-28 range would go into STEM”
I tend to agree with this as well, the non-athlete 24-28 is not going for the weed out majors, at least not right away.
Um, my engineering daughter had an ACT of 27 or 28. She’s a terrible multiple choice test taker.
I don’t think she entered college in the bottom, but smack in the middle of her class. She’s a good worker. She sits in the seat until she understands the material. She was petrified going into college that she wouldn’t be able to keep up. Once she took her first test, she was fine.
10% or 25% or however you define the bottom of the class are in the bottom of every class. The real question is how far is that 10% from the top of the class? If the scale is 100 and 75% are at the 96% and the bottom 10% are at 94%, that’s a lot less distance to cover than if the bottom 10% are at 84%.
The OP didn’t say these kids were at the bottom of their high school classes, but that their stats (meaning test scores) put them at the so-called statistical bottom of their entering college class. Hence the reference to looking at the CDS.
In part that represents a common misunderstanding about how colleges use and report scores, but that’s a topic for another thread.
These kids did something that got them admitted. Unless they are hooked in some other way, most probably they have very strong high school GPAs, because among admitted students, the ones with weaker test scores do tend to have stronger GPA’s.
The OP also said “very few if any top honors” classes, but I really don’t know what that means. That would have applied to my daughter as well, though her GPA put her ranked near the very top of her high school class. But my daughter didn’t follow the linear, typical path through high school. She did something distinctive and different,and in the course of getting there, some compromises were required, because of scheduling concerns.
A lot of students who get into excellent colleges have very lopsided profiles, and kids who are artsy or who have other strengths outside the core academic subjects may look to an outsider like their stats are weak, but may very well have the types of qualities or strengths the colleges that admit them are looking for. As well as the usual caveat that many students often do very impressive things outside of high school that their classmates are entirely unaware of.— and colleges also really do like students who have gone beyond the boundaries of their high schools to pursue or explore other experiences and opportunities.
Yes my third in engineering had a composite ACT of 28 (high math, extremely low reading due to LD) and did just fine with selective engineering school admissions. He did not attend the most selective as he was wait listed until almost August and he was already emotionally entrenched somewhere else from which is ultimately transferred…so long boring story…, but point is there are many variables that contribute to the “bottom” of an incoming class and that “bottom” will not be the same after one year. Also the “bottom” is not all athletes so glad to shut down that never ending exhaustive conversation.
Frankly there is a huge difference from majoring in engineering at a state university and MIT/CT/Stanford, even as there is a huge difference from a state flagship and “other” state universities. The depth of the courses and strength of the class can be staggering.
I knew a guy who was an athlete at Penn and had most likely the lowest SAT scores of anyone admitted that year. He graduated from Wharton and has done just fine. He was an Olympian in his sport.
On the other side, I know someone who recently graduated and was a tutor for the athletic scholarship athletes. Some came from the very low end of admitted students, worked hard and did OK. Others were more involved in their sport and wanted the tutors to do the work for them. That’s not how it works.
“A lot of students who get into excellent colleges have very lopsided profiles,”
Right but the OP wasn’t questioning, I don’t think, why they got in, but what is their experience when do get in. Are they guided to easier majors, is there a generous curve at these places where you get a B for just showing up? Is there a defacto “segregation” that happens with the kids who got 36/1600, took APs, are taking sophomore classes and aren’t really interacting with these kids who are taking the intro classes?
The more advanced students may be taking sophomore level courses as frosh, alongside less advanced sophomores.
Of course, a cohort of college students with a wide mix of majors will not be bunched into the same courses like in high school, so any sorting by how advanced students are at frosh entry may not be as visible in college as in high school. And many subjects in college are not commonly started at an advanced level because few high school students have a chance to study them (e.g. anthropology, philosophy) or the usual AP courses are not considered enough for advanced placement (e.g. geography).
Social segregation may be more based on other characteristics like choice of major, being on a varsity sports team, fraternity or sorority membership, etc… SES origin, race/ethnicity, and national origin of international students may also contribute to social segregation (though they can overlap with other characteristics like fraternity or sorority membership).
No, because nobody gives a rat’s butt what the SAT or ACT score was once they are in college. My daughter with her 27 ACT (and, 1200 SAT math/cr) came in with plenty of AP credit and enrolled for advanced level courses her first semester. In one class she needed to get permission from the prof & was the only first year in the class – everyone else was a sophomore or above.
Whether a student starts off in an intro level class or an advanced class has nothing whatsoever to do with their SAT score. It’s generally just a matter of preparation. So yes, a kid who hasn’t completed pre-calc in high school isn’t going to enroll in multivariable calc their first semester… but beyond that it just depends on the college policies and curriculum. If the college has a core or a strict set of general ed requirements, then the students have to take those courses, and many schools are very restrictive about allowing students to us AP or IB scores to waive out of the basic requirements.
And other schools are very flexible, or have open curricula, and in those places then the students can sign up for whatever courses they want.
And probably quite often blow the other students out of the water.
Some employers reportedly do, since they apparently consider one’s SAT/ACT taking ability in high school to be relevant for someone soon to graduate from college.
A bit off topic but so many of these athletes go on and do quite well. They may not have been the most academic (some are) but they know how to work through diversity, overcome injury, manage ridiculously busy schedule, support a team (really important in the business world). In a word, they are competitive. They want to win and are wiling to experience pain to achieve. You can’t teach that. Employers love that.
When my family member graduated college and got his first job… not only did he have to take a test and show his college transcript…he also had to report his SAT and/or ACT scores. The reporting of scores might not be common… and it might depend on the field…but it does occasionally happen.
Athletes are given a lot of quirks in many of these selective colleges, here’s one confirmed at some very selective schools - a professor needs to get permission to give an athlete a C or lower. Wonder why these athletes do quite well…
Its a ridiculous assumption that someone with well below the average scores/grades in HS for the college they are attending is suddenly going to become very competitive with someone who did well above the average. Certainly might be an exception or two but past performance is the most solid indicator of future performance.
Almost everyone admitted will graduate from an elite school, but for some, it may not be worth the cost in terms of major or self esteem. Some students who struggle in engineering at MIT and transfer to a different major there would have done quite well in engineering elsewhere. Some students are more sensitive to these things than others
Most very selective colleges acknowledge that they turn down many students who are capable of doing the work, simply because they have limited space. I certainly wouldn’t assume that the lower end of their accepted pool is going to struggle.
One of my best friends in high school shocked all of us when she got into Yale as a first-generation student. She would be the first to tell you she was in the bottom of her class there. She majored in psychology, no clue what her grades were, but she finished on time. She moved back to our hometown after graduating, taught primary school for a few years, and then became a SAHM after marrying a guy she had been dating off and on since high school.
I think if you’re in the bottom of the class, outside of the amazing financial aid, the benefits of an “elite” ethos are over your head or tough to take advantage of. It is NOT a clean slate for everyone during welcome week. Everyone is not coming in equipped with the same connections, savvy, or social and academic skills.
Not nearly as ridiculous as the assumption that non-athlete students with below-median **test scores/b also have below-median HS grades
That is the exact opposite of how college admissions work. The students who have relatively lower test scores will tend to have higher GPA’s – because their high GPA’s are reason that the college admissions is willing to overlook the test scores.
I know many people who do much better in college than high school because they are finally taking courses that interest them. My younger son didn’t get great grade his first couple of years in college when he was taking Gen Eds and Arabic was sucking half his time. But he got straight A’s senior year, including in Arabic.
Older son did just the opposite. Was on the Dean’s List freshman year, but after that only worked hard in the courses that interested him. He did well enough to get a job at Google.
@calmom according to the USA Today, the AVERAGE high school senior has an A average GPA. And OP referenced students who were NOT in most advanced course track.