Any parents with or know of a child in the bottom of their entering class at very selective college?

Parents Forum
41

@CU123 that’s not what this discussion has been about. The topic is elite schools where the difference between the bottom and top can be the difference between an unweighted 3.7 and a 4.0… a handful of B’s. The score difference may be between 1350 and 1550 which can be colored heavily be how much rest prep is built into the individual high schools. When the line is that fine, A lower stat student who is more independent may handle the college transition better than a high stat student that perhaps doesn’t know how to handle the sudden drop in structured activity and schedule. Sometimes that happens.

Now you want to take this out of the “highly selective” catergory, maybe you can build more an argument but for the most part, those competitive schools are pretty darn homogenous from top to bottom.

42

@coldbrew22 - Not being in the “most advanced” course track doesn’t mean that the GPA is weak. They can still be getting A’s and have a 4.0 average. Their weighted GPA might be lower, but colleges don’t rely on high school weightings – the use their own formulas.

If those kids are getting accepted at the colleges listed (Penn, Brown, Northwestern, Stanford) – they’ve got strong high school transcripts. They may not be playing the same game that seem to be CC dogma (“most rigorous”; loading up on all available AP’s, etc.) — but that’s not really what colleges look for. The OP didn’t say that the students were on some sort of slow track, or that they were precluded from honors courses because of grades --just that they had “very few if any top honors” classes. I posted before that I didn’t even know what that means. Some kids opt to focus on their interests rather than the course designation; some kids run into scheduling issues. That’s what happened to my daughter. She had terrific grades, a super-strong profile in one key area of interest… and scheduling issues that just didn’t provide room for more than a handful of AP’s.

I’d add that some kids also opt out of AP courses because they prefer the depth that a non-AP course might give. I know that was the reasoning behind my daughter’s decision to forego English AP Comp – she did talk to the teacher, and decided she preferred a literature-focused course instead. So sometimes the choice is deliberate, especially if the school offers a variety of options.

I don’t believe that these non-athlete classmates of the OP’s daughter got admitted to those universities with crappy grades. I just don’t.

I think it’s far more likely that they’ve focused on their areas of interest and got accepted to colleges in part because they did a good job of conveying their own unique qualities.

43

@calmom @turtletime
It sounds as if both of you are misinformed. Have you attended a t20 or talked to anyone who has? Elites have a small but very clear, very distinct bottom of the class. OP referenced 24-28 on the ACT and an easy track. You really think those kids are anywhere near the same stratosphere as 34-36 ACT, highest honors 4.0, and 6-12 perfect AP scores? Pretending everyone enters college (yes, even elites) with the same or even similar IQ/capacity/potential is flat out false.

It sounds like OP’s kid is in a first-generation development/readiness program like GEAR UP. https://www2.ed.gov/programs/gearup/index.html

44

You clearly are misinformed about what ACT/SAT results actually signify.

45

“The OP didn’t say that the students were on some sort of slow track, or that they were precluded from honors courses because of grades --just that they had “very few if any top honors” classes.”

Bottom of the class with very few honors class with the low end of the ACT scores implies that these were not students who were A students and didn’t take AP courses because of scheduling. They were C or D students who got in to these colleges, now how did they graduate? Obviously no one is going to admit their kid is at the bottom of the class at a selective college, as the OP is asking a question with no solution (like dividing by zero, ha!). So does anybody actually know someone that was a C or D student that got into these colleges and graduated? If they did, what was their major, did they get help, did they got to a college where you get a B for showing up? Again doubt anyone knows these kinds of people either.

46

Again, the OP did NOT say that these students were bottom of their high school class— she said that their test scores would put them at the “bottom” of their college class based on looking at CDS data from those schools.

Obviously the elite & Ivy schools she lists aren’t admitting C or D students … and she never said that.

She wrote that these students would be the “bottom of their entering class at very selective college” (thread title); that they were admitted with scores in the 24-28 ACT range (not sure if she was referencing composite scores or subscores). She didn’t say anything at all about high school grades.

47

We can argue semantics all day, the question the OP asked is do we have a kid who’s at the bottom of an entering class of a college like the four mentioned? If not, do we know of someone like that, and how did they graduate. Again, no one is going to admit having or knowing a child at the bottom of the class, which is why there is no solution to this, and given the OP hasn’t posted again, seems like a flame/trolling kind of thread.

48

I agree that it’s a flaming type of post, but the OP defined “bottom” in terms of ACT scores. And I answered, as did others, who know students who entered with low end test scores and did just fine.

No one enters at “the bottom”. That’s impossible, because class standing is determined by college grades. Basically everyone starts with a blank slate.

The examples the OP gave were ACT scores in the 24-28 range. I imagine that there are CC parents who would contemplate suicide if their offspring came home with such scores, but the reality is that those are college-ready scores and students with scores in that range should be able to do well at college if motivated. An ACT of 24 is about 75th percentile, meaning that student is in the top quartile of all test takers.

The scores are not valid tests for IQ or aptitude, and the test prep industry and the practice of repeat administrations have pretty much invalidated them for any other purpose as well. The tests are an excellent proxy for family wealth, and I assume richer kids do have significant advantages that carry through to college, but that’s not what the OP asked.

49

Yes, I know someone at a top 5 LAC that is bottom of his class because he was a recruited athlete. ACT was in the 24-28 range, but college is test optional so no need to send. His courses have included Asian dance, intro to theater, etc. He has ALOT of help (tutoring). He’s doing fine - always choosing the easiest classes with the easiest professors (academic advisor is a pro at this) I’m not sure if he’s declared a major yet. The interesting thing is that he only tics 1 demographic - recruited athlete for an uncommon sport- at this small school. I’m surprised they accepted him. Very wealthy, white B student. He knows he’s bottom of the class, but has company and is enjoying his time. with the fancy LAC pedigree + dad connections you will do fine getting a job post College. GPA is not below 3.0.

Also interesting, since he’s full pay he doesn’t have to do this sport all 4 years. So the uncommon sport was the ticket in but he will likely only do it for the first two years.

Looking at Naviance right now. at the small high school there are 8 students with red X’s to the right and above of his green ED check. All students to the left of his stats also have red X’s, except another ED. Kind of depressing to be honest.

50

@suzyQ7 Unless the LAC is D1, such as Davidson – there is no athletic scholarship for a recruited athlete at D3 level. A D3 coach is always aware that a recruited player may choose not to participate after admission, and there is not a darn thing the coach can do about it.

To the broader question posed – students may have all kinds of reasons why their high school profile is not “tippy top” and yet be quite successful in academically demanding environments. Some kids are bored by the “teaching to the test” of the AP curriculum but come alive when able to pursue interests deeply in college, others may have obligations or life events which interfere with their ability to excel in high school but there is still plenty of “horse power” for them to draw on in college. And yes, we know a number of kids who might have seemed “outmatched” by their college but have excelled academically.

51

High GPA in college depends mostly on your major, your fit with the major and your desire and effort. I went to an Ivy and got Cs and Ds in engineering classes even though I had 790 in math sat. (I also had 3.0 gpa in high school.). I realized I was not interested doing research, long lab hours or solving math problems or sitting at my desk too long. I needed a major which allowed me to skip classes, do the work in my head while I walked, lay on bed or ate, and grades did not necessarily depend on the hours of effort. I found it in English Lit major! I ended up with 3.9 gpa in these classes even though I skipped many classes, so I was able to graduate with 3.0 gpa from college. In fact, my gpa from high school to law school stayed between 2.9 to 3.0. I dare say many of my class mates though I was a pretty smart guy who must have been getting all As. Retired early. Therefore, I know for fact that often gpa has nothing to do with intelligence. I was lazy in schools but very diligent outside school. I never judge anyone’s intelligence based on gpa. And high sat test scores (I had 99.99%) don’t mean you will get high gpa.

52

I agree with @theloniusmonk as my first thought was how does the OP’s dd know what the (multiple??) admitted students submitted to these colleges? Did they re-take the ACT or also have SAT scores? I read this (perhaps too suspicious on my end) as more of a how could these undeserving kids take a spot at these top colleges. I would venture to guess that if this is in fact true the HS must be very highly regarded by adcoms and these kids would do just fine.

53

“Everyone is not coming in equipped with the same connections, savvy, or social and academic skills.”

The whole point of going to an elite college is to acquire all of the above.
My 25% percentile athlete from an average public HS did just that and successfully graduated. She did initially complain that she had no experience to crank out 20 pages papers on demand comparing to her private school peers.

54

I’m curious why OP is asking. For purposes of my answer I’m going to assume (1) it’s because OP has a kid who is thinking of applying to elite schools and is wondering how her kid will do with this and that (2) OP’s comments about the ACT score and HS classes is a reflection that this kid did not have as rigorous of a HS prep program as the majority of the kids coming into the elite school.

If this assumption is correct, I think the answer is it depends on the school and on the major. Some of the elite colleges pride themselves on their extremely rigorous program. Think UChicago “life of the mind”, MIT, Princeton. Other elite colleges pride themselves on the whole experience think Harvard, Yale.

If OP’s kid goes to one of the extremely rigorous schools and does not have an adequate foundation, yes there are lots of tutoring options available, but what what is the student’s life at school going to be like? And are they going to end up with the type of major they want, or with the easiest major they could find so that they could pass the classes? Someone else used engineering as an example. If the kid isn’t that strong of a student and chooses to go to MIT for engineering, there is a strong chance they won’t graduate with a degree in this, and if they wanted to be an engineer they would have been better off going to a different school where the degree of difficulty wasn’t so crazy. Even if the kid wants to major in something in the liberal arts where you might think that the degree of preparation wouldn’t be as critical (building blocks of learning) as in STEM, I think the level of rigor at some of these schools is so high, that a student coming from a less rigorous HS could be at a real disadvantage and would have to devote a lot of time to increasing their skill sets above and beyond the pile of work that they are already being given.

As to the point about whether OP’s kid will fit in socially, another poster had a really good point. If we are talking about the elite schools who have students with a wide range of diversity racially, economically, first gen, geographically, politically, etc, I think OP’s kid will find friends and there will be plenty of things for them to do. If we are talking about the next tiers down that have little diversity, I could imagine that it would be much harder. If it’s possible to actually visit the schools, we found that we could quickly notice how the kids intermingle with each other or self-segregate.

About connections etc, while it’s true that some of the kids at the elite schools have incredible social connections, the elite schools are doing a magnificent job with promoting their students and creating connections for kids who otherwise don’t have them. This is one of the top benefits of going to an elite school. And I think there is a huge difference between what the schools are doing now verses what they were doing 20 years ago. They are much more pro-active in promoting ALL the kids.

But my question is, if your kid is going to a school where they are struggling to survive academically, are they going to have the chance to take advantage of everything that the school has to offer? Will they have the time to make the connections? Will they end up graduating with a degree that they are actually interested in?

Again, I think that there are some elite schools that do not kill their students with work. And that there are some majors that are easier than others. So a lesser prepared student can not just survive but can thrive in these schools. But personally, I’d stay away from one of the schools that pride itself on how hard their students work. Just my 2 cents.

55

@melvin123 I may be misconstruing the OP’s post, but I did not think it was about their kid but rather, word of mouth about other kids who participated in an academic program with the kid and had been admitted to highly selective schools with purportedly lower gpas and test scores than “the norm.” So it was asking whether, having gotten in “at the low end,” would kids like those struggle/suffer through college.

56

But the bottom 25% at an elite school is not as far removed from the top 25% as at a non-elite school. Someone who had a 90% average in high school might be in the bottom 25% at an Ivy, but would have been in the top 25% at another school.

If you are looking for schools where the top students group together and exclude the ‘lesser’ students, look at the schools with honors programs. They are designed to keep the top students together and exclude others. Not all do, some allow non-honors students to take those classes, but schools that have honors housing and exclusively honors classes sure make it hard for all students to mix.

57

I also don’t get what OP’s concern is. If OP’s kid is in the same prep program that has already sent kids with ACT 24-28 to Stanford then its really great, absolutely nothing to worry about at this point. Come next April with acceptance offers from Stanford to less selective schools at hand OP can make school visits and figure out which may be the best choice. Worrying about what Penn, Brown, NW or Stanford might do to his/her kid’s college career without an offer from them seems to me premature.

58

My post 53 was based on seeing kids I know. And I do think that some kids in the bottom 25 percent are vastly differently prepared than the kids in the top 25 percent. The schools do provide a lot of resources so to help a kid catch up, but at what price? That’s going to differ by school and major. I think it’s smart for a parent to question whether a particular school would get their kid where they want to go. It’s good to question different schools about their support system, and whether any scholarships would cover summer classes or an extra semester in order to have a lighter courseload so there’s time built in for tutoring.

59

@melvin123 – the OP specifically referenced these schools: Penn, Brown, Northwestern and Stanford

And she specifically said that these students were non-athletes.

I don’t know what you mean by “bottom 25 percent” but I find it very difficult to believe that these schools are taking in any students at all who are poorly qualified or unready for the experience, except perhaps for a few development cases, and possible special admissions programs for disadvantaged students – and those programs when offered generally come with all sorts of specialized supports built in to assure success of those students. (Example: my daughter’s alma mater takes in HEOP students, who by definition will all have lower test scores, as the eligibility standards require that the applicants have scores of ACT English scores 24 or below, or equivalent low end scores on the SAT) That’s the whole point of a program geared to disadvantaged students.

But the OP didn’t label the students she referenced that way.

And honestly, I can’t believe that any admissions staffer at Brown or Stanford or any of the other schools listed is going to admit a student if they have any doubt whatsoever that the student is capable of doing well there. After all, they are turning away ~95% of their applicant pools, they can afford to be choosy.

Maybe I’m wrong but its starting to sound something like an urban myth… some sort of secret backdoor into the elites whereby they have open admissions for really marginal students because… why?

So I stand by what I said: there is no such thing as a “bottom 25%” in the entering class of these colleges. There is variation in test scores and level of high school preparation, but beyond that these are all very highly capable students.

Now if we were talking about a public university or a less selective private … I can see the point. Are there kids at, say, UC Merced that really aren’t college ready? Probably so. But those aren’t the kids with ACT scores of 24-28 – there are plenty of kids attending colleges who have ACT scores in the 18-21 range and many of them probably do have significant academic weaknesses that will hold them back. But they aren’t ending up at elite colleges either-- they are most likely at schools where there are plenty others like them, so there isn’t going to be social stratification.

But that’s a different conversation for a different thread.

I still see this thread as essentially another variation of the Lake Wobegon theory of college admissions. If there was a college that set an ACT 32 as its minimum requirement for admission, so that every single student had scores of 32-36… then there would be a bunch of kids with 32’s who would then form a “bottom 25 percent” for their school.

If a college accepts kids with ACT 24, then that’s because the college ad coms have decided that ACT 24 is good enough to do reasonably well at their school. If it weren’t, they wouldn’t admit those students.

60

Less selective colleges may not believe that fully. But they (particularly public schools) may have a policy reason to give more students chances, despite the risk of failure. Community colleges are obvious examples of this policy (and their lower cost to the student and the state reduces the cost of failure risk), but less selective universities can also be examples.