Any statistics to show that minorities due worse in college?

AdOfficer · June 18, 2007, 12:42pm

norcalguy,

your assumptions about who affirmative action is helping is a bit off-base.
most of us in admissions at top schools are very savvy and aware of the privileges our applicants have - that’s part of our responsibility working at institutions that use affirmative action policies. the majority of the black students i personally admitted this year for whom affirmative action was involved did not have socioeconomic privilege; those that did have privilege were as stellar as any white, latino, or asian american students that had the same privilege (educationally, financially, for example). there seems to be this pervasive attitude on cc that the black and latino kids getting into top institutions who have some kind of socioeconomic privilege aren’t up to par with their white and asian american peers, and that simply is not the case. and, regardless, many of these students are still dealing with the reality that discrimination and prejudice are far more pervasive in our nation’s schools than most people care to admit. the social and psychological effects this has on these students cannot be ignored! economic privilege does not make discrimination, prejudice, and racism dissappear!

admittedly, i do believe there are some institutions that seem to only be concerned with their “stats,” (much like many cc’ers are with their stats!) - they want their “numbers” (of urm students) to look good. however, i do not believe that the majority of schools out there who are using affirmative action are using it for this purpose - most are truly interested AND INVESTED IN opening up doors for students who, historically, have not had the same advantages many white students have had in this country. i personnally could not and would not work at an institution that was not conscious of the social and pedagological importance of diversity and affirmative action, and i think many of my peers in the admissions profession would feel the same way if asked.

it is really also very important to remember that - in terms of socioeconomics - low income students, in general, regardless of race, have also been the beneficiaries of affirmative action-like policies at many institutions. if you look at real numbers, there are far more low income white students in this country than any other race. i mention this just to remind everyone that there are also plenty of white students out there for whom we in admissions are also working hard to admit, keeping in mind that they, too, have been disadvantaged…don’t think that only urm students are the only ones for whom affirmative action works.

you_llsee · June 18, 2007, 1:52pm

I love when white students think that AA is bad, and that black students will do bad in prestigious colleges. Why?

because it shows your fear. You know that black students are capable of not only measuring up to your abilities but surpassing them.

black students from horrible public schools are able to score as high and BETTER then white students who spend thousands of dollars on SAT prep classes and dozens of prep books. which says what?

black students who get accepted into ivies are obviously smarter then most of the white students who are also accepted. although the black student may have only scored a 2100 while the white student scored a 2300, that same white student spent a bunch a money on prep classes and books, while the black student maybe had one prep book. but if that white student who scored 2300 with thousands of dollars would have been in the same situation as the black student (less money), he probably only would have scored a 1800 or 1900.

And so who ever came up with AA probably knew this. they knew that although black students may score 100 or 200 points lower on the SAT then white students, that they surpass many white students when it comes to intellectual ability or I.Q.

somebody please comment on this…because i’m ready to argue on this one. this post has gotten me in the mood to debate.

it’s quite hilarious, more like pitiful how white students think that they will do better then black students in college just because they scored higher on a test. HA

Shrinkrap · June 18, 2007, 1:58pm

Thanks all, for the clarification regarding SAT’s and the “best " schools. I was referring to “good” schools, and reflecting my impression that SAT’s where not as important as is sometimes suggested. I am a she, BTW, a 48 year old Child Psychiatrist, whose “negro” father was born in 1913 in Alabama, and was subject to a great deal of discrimination, but did amazing things. As a result, I am second generation college, and my kids will be third, but after finding “CC” I am more aware of how disadvantaged we remain with regard to being “successful”. Frankly I don’t claim to understand it all, especially when everyday in my practice I m confronted with just how many things can go wrong between conception and death, and how disproportionately this affects Blacks & Hispanics.I happen to live in a community where the average income of blacks is higher than whites, but I work in a residential treatment center with kids from juvenile hall, where being white is rare enough, that you are called " the white guy”. It is my opinion that kids can start out with similar genetic endowments and go down very different paths, and that this has been true for generations. So while I do my best everyday to help the underprivileged, I also see a benefit in pushing upward the “best” of the gene-pool, and hoping to learn what makes these “survivors” so successful.

b_r_um · June 18, 2007, 2:00pm

you’llsee…, why do you assume that white students generally spend a lot of money on SAT prep and black students generally do not?

you_llsee · June 18, 2007, 2:15pm

barlum…please don’t act naive. i’m not saying all white students…BUT IN GENERAL white students do spend a lot of money on SAT prep. so don’t try to argue that this is not the case. i assume this because it is completely true. in general white students are richer and thus have the money to do so, and they do.

AdOfficer · June 18, 2007, 2:29pm

“It is my opinion that kids can start out with similar genetic endowments and go down very different paths, and that this has been true for generations.”

<ul>
<li>Shrinkrap</li>
</ul>

I think this hits the proverbial nail right on its head.

b_r_um · June 18, 2007, 2:55pm

you’llsee…, don’t you think that you generalize way too much? Sure, on average whites are richer than blacks but the majority of high school students, both whites and blacks, are not wealthy at all.

And as you are only talking about averages, how much money does the average high school student (who wants to attend his state university I guess) spend on SAT prep???

fabrizio · June 18, 2007, 4:05pm

Sure, I’ll be happy to comment on your posts.

First, the second paragraph I quoted is ironic. You’re obviously pro-affirmative action and believe that black students are capable of reaching and exceeding high standards. And, hey, I agree with you in part. Black students are fully capable of reaching and exceeding high standards. That’s why I believe affirmative action is not necessary. Why favor a policy that lowers standards for blacks when they are capable of beating the standards other students are compared to?

GAclassof2008 · June 18, 2007, 4:08pm

you’ll see… u are one of the brightest ppl on CC, i have seen your stats and i do agree w/ most of your opinions.

GAclassof2008 · June 18, 2007, 4:09pm

Affirmative Action In education and in the work place

In Motion Magazine: Is there a difference between affirmative action struggles in education and affirmative action struggles in the workplace.

Ren

ixjunitxi · June 18, 2007, 4:21pm

Kinda funny that this thread has 70 posts already… seems to be all CC kids care about…

fabrizio · June 18, 2007, 5:50pm

Seventy posts since May 27 makes this a relatively slow affirmative action-related thread.

norcalguy · June 18, 2007, 7:10pm

you’llsee, your entire post is built on generalizations. Studies have already shown that the black students who get into Harvard, Yale, etc. are from upper middle class families.

And whether you believe it or not, minorities do not perform better in college. This is why affirmative action is once again instituted for grad school admissions. The average White/Asian applicant who gets into medical school has a MCAT score of 32 and GPA of 3.6 while the average URM has a MCAT score of 27 and 3.3. The admissions formula is GPA * 10 + MCAT. So Whites/Asians have a 68 while URMs have an average of 60. To give you an idea of how big 8 points is, it is roughly the difference in admissions criteria between Harvard Med (35, 3.8) and Rosalind Franklin (widely-acknowledged as one of the lowest ranked med schools, 29, 3.5).

Is it really a surprise that URMs flunk out of med school due to academic reasons at 6 times the rate of White/Asian medical students? What happens to those who actually pass med school? Read the article below and find out. The old adage, “The student who finishes last in his med school class is a doctor” is true. But is he a good doctor?

We institute AA for college admissions. It’s not enough. We institute AA for grad school admissions. It’s still not enough. We institute AA for employment hirings. At what point do we stop and acknowledge the fact that this practice has actually killed patients?

And for the record, I am neither white nor in college anymore. I graduated with a good GPA so I’m certainly not fearful of being outperformed by anyone, black, white, asian, whatever.

And my point isn’t that minorities make bad doctors. It’s that there is some correlation between MCAT score and performance in medical school and future performance as a physician. Due to affirmative action, the ones consistently getting in with substandard MCAT scores are URMs.

"Study of punished doctors notes 4 schools

<a href=“http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines[/url]”>http://www.sunspot.net/news/health/b...alth-headlines</a>

By Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien
Special To The Sun
Originally published June 29, 2003

A handful of medical schools in the United States and abroad graduate troubled doctors at about 10 times the rate of the best schools, an eight-month Hartford Courant investigation found.
Four medical schools - the Autonomous University of Guadalajara in Mexico, Howard University in Washington, Manila Central University in the Philippines and Meharry Medical College in Nashville, Tenn. - ranked at the bottom in analyses of three databases containing records of disciplinary actions against thousands of physicians across the United States.

Other medical schools also fared poorly in The Courant’s review, but only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila Central and Meharry appeared in the bottom 5 percent of about 200 schools ranked by rates of disciplinary actions against graduates in each analysis. Together, these large, well-established schools have produced more than 600 doctors cited by licensing boards for negligence, incompetence, sexual assault, drug abuse or fraud.

History of concern

Within the medical profession, some of these schools have long been watched with concern. Howard and Meharry ranked at the bottom of a National Science Foundation-funded survey of U.S. medical school quality in 1977, and questions have been raised about Guadalajara for years.

Although it is difficult to draw conclusions about individual doctors based on where they went to school, the Connecticut newspaper’s findings point to a link between medical schools that have raised concerns in various settings and troubling behavior by some of their graduates.

‘Incredible information’

“This is incredible information,” said Dr. Rebecca Patchin, chairwoman of the American Medical Association’s council on medical education. “This could shake up the whole community and force people to take another look at the licensing criteria.”

The reasons for the poor showing of these schools are unclear, but most have one thing in common: a practice of admitting students with lower grades or scores on standardized tests who might have trouble being accepted in many other places.

At least one school, Guadalajara, has accepted would-be doctors who never finished college.

“There is no excuse for students being allowed into medical school if they aren’t adequately prepared,” said Dr. Sidney Wolfe, director of health research for Public Citizen, a consumer group based in Washington.

“Maybe this means that it’s worth requiring that anyone practicing medicine in this country had adequate preparation before medical school,” Wolfe said.

Study criticized

The findings of The Courant drew a sharp response from the head of the trade group representing U.S. medical schools, who said it was impossible to pin the performance of physicians on the schools they graduated from because too many other variables determine success or failure.

“I think it’s kind of an irrational approach to analyzing a very complex set of issues,” said Dr. Jordan Cohen, president of the American Association of Medical Colleges, who characterized the effort as “simplistic” and “foolish.”

“I don’t think there are any bad medical schools” in the United States, Cohen said. “That’s a null set.”

The Courant analyzed national and state databases containing the type of disciplinary information consumers can get through “physician profile” Web sites run by state licensing boards.

The broadest database, compiled by Public Citizen, contained information on more than 19,000 physicians disciplined between 1990 and 1999 by state licensing boards, the federal Medicare and Medicaid programs, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Drug Enforcement Administration.

The Courant also obtained “physician profile” databases from two large-population, geographically distinct states, California and Ohio, which together contain the records for about 240,000 doctors who have held licenses over the past 50 years. The California database also contains information on some malpractice payments made by physicians.

Study’s methodology

The schools represented were then ranked according to rates of disciplined graduates. After eliminating small schools with statistically insignificant numbers of graduates, only Guadalajara, Howard, Manila and Meharry consistently stood out with the highest rates of disciplined doctors in all three databases.

In California, approximately one of every 10 graduates from each of the schools has faced disciplinary action. For most schools, fewer than half that many graduates have been disciplined.

Admission standards

The schools differ in many ways, but the clearest common denominator is their flexible admission standards.

The two U.S. schools, Howard and Meharry, have played a critical role in the history of American medical education, training generations of black physicians when the doors to most schools were largely open only to whites. Doctors trained at these schools have gone on to provide care for many who were being turned away by all-white hospitals, or by physicians who refused to treat minorities.

They are also among a handful of historically black institutions that attract students who often come from underprivileged backgrounds and may score lower on standardized tests.

“Many, although not all, of our students come from disadvantaged backgrounds and therefore have not had the same educational advantages as other students in their formative years,” Meharry spokeswoman Jill Scoggins said in a statement.

Howard and Meharry refused the newspaper’s requests to meet with school officials. Instead, The Courant provided the schools with a written summary of the analysis and a list of questions.

Howard officials declined to comment. Officials at Manila Central did not respond to questions about the newspaper’s findings.

Opportunity in Mexico

The Autonomous University of Guadalajara also has more flexible admissions standards, but for a different reason. The school draws U.S. citizens south of the border by catering to college students who do not have the grades, or the Medical College Admission Test scores, to get into a medical school in the United States.

“We don’t frown on someone with a ‘B’ average,” said Peter Himonidis, a Guadalajara dean. “We provide an opportunity for people who are determined to become doctors but are denied that opportunity at home.”

While the majority of Guadalajara’s graduates go on to practice without tarnished records, others have dismayed courts and regulators across the country with their lack of preparation for the safe practice of medicine.

Insufficient training

Dr. Jose Nabut of Florida, a graduate of Guadalajara, seriously injured at least five patients using a surgical technique that plaintiffs’ lawyers said he learned by practicing on a pig at a weekend seminar after graduation. One of those patients, Glenn O’Loughlin, required eight corrective surgeries after Nabut mistakenly stapled shut his bile duct during what should have been a routine gallbladder removal.

O’Loughlin said he was stunned to discover, much later, that Nabut had been accepted at Guadalajara without earning a college degree.

“If I had known any of that, I never would have gone to him,” O’Loughlin said. “But when your insurance company refers you to a doctor, you just trust that they know what they’re doing.”

Jack Dolan and Andrew Julien are reporters for The Hartford Courant, a Tribune Publishing newspaper."

arbiter213 · June 18, 2007, 7:14pm

And IN GENERAL, Black students prefer watermelon, koolaid, and fried chicken? You’re a racist. Try supporting AA without using racism. You can cite it, sure. But do so without using it.

Tyler09 · June 18, 2007, 7:55pm

fine.

ethnic diversity is valuable to the overwhelming majority which includes ethnic diversity.

african americans and hispanics have been struggling as a result of obstacles imposed on them as a result of their ethnicity.

that JUSTIFIES using AA if necessary

Because without AA we lose ethnic diversity, everybody loses w/o it.

AA also works to combat those racial obstacles because individuals exposed to equally educated and affluent members of those races on a larger scale will relieve universal stereotypes.

It also better sets up those groups for success so that they will have better opportunities.

Because AA is justifiable because of the almost universal acknowledgment of racial obstacles faced by those groups, is necessary because those groups are struggling, and is important because of the positive effects it will produce, I support AA as well as the majority of adcoms.

Asians and jews, are minorities that face discrimination, so AA for them would be JUSTIFIABLE, but is not necessary because those groups are not struggling.

There, i supported AA w/o racism.

Will AA be 100% effective, no. of course it has it’s drawbacks, as cited by many of you who say they perform worse as a whole in those universities.

BUT the majority that DO graduate get to experience the enormous benefit that comes with a college education, and therefore appreciate the value of that education and will help to correct a major problem in african american society by putting more emphasis on education.

AA does not HURT those groups, the only african americans who do say that are misinformed or they are the ones that could have gotten into the most elite colleges race blind and aren’t willing to suck up their pride for the good of the whole.

I have yet to hear a single argument that truly explains why AA should be forbidden.

the closet thing i’ve heard was fabrizio’s argument that is is giving a group preferences based on race. and that he cannot support that.

-to that i say, yes, yes it is preferences based on race. But it is necessary, and important. I don’t believe in killing people. but i do believe that going to war to defend your country sometimes is necessary and important, and when it is necessary i support war, but part of war is killing people.

Sometimes you have to stop and look at the big picture.

arbiter213 · June 18, 2007, 8:02pm

I wasn’t actually challenging anyone to do so Tyler, though you did a good job. My point was that you’llsee is a racist and most of his posts are nonsensical, pseudo-statistical garbage.

AA is good for society (for another decade or so, anyway). However, I suggest you re-look at the the 14th amendment for the reason why it’s questionably legal (in fact, you should check up on modern case law about public schools and AA)

fabrizio · June 18, 2007, 9:13pm

Tyler,

Yes, the majority does possess a great deal of ethnic diversity, I am glad that you admitted that.

I disagree that without affirmative action, ethnic diversity is lost. The ~40% Asian numbers at Berkeley and LA includes many Asian ethnicities. Theres plenty of ethnic diversity.

Please read the paper norcalguy referenced.

Thats funny. I dont consider Mr. Ward Connerly, Dr. Shelby Steele, and Dr. Thomas Sowell to be misinformed. Also, the second part of that quotation makes little sense. The blacks who dont support affirmative action are the ones who didnt need it and are thus wrong for suggesting that their group be treated equally? I find it interesting that you criticize them instead of holding them as role models.

you_llsee · June 18, 2007, 10:45pm

arbiter213…

your little comment about watermelon and fried chicken was quite funny. mainly because it supports my statement about fear. you are obviously threatened and must respond by making racial attacks. i only feel sorry for you though.

JG863 · June 18, 2007, 10:48pm

^ Plain and straight

arbiter213 · June 18, 2007, 11:08pm

You clearly don’t understand basic rhetorical or grammatical constructs, like the rhetorical question or question mark. And I don’t feel threatened by Black students any more than I feel threatened by Asians, Hispanics, or other Whites, because I’m very competitive. And if you bothered to read my other posts, you’d notice I’m pro AA…

Any statistics to show that minorities due worse in college?

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