Any statistics to show that minorities due worse in college?

[fabrizio]

<p>

to those black applicants you talk about who want to be treated “equally”, they should just not check their race box, instead of attempting to abolish the benefit to all urms.

</p>

<p>You’re saying that it’s OK for black students to not check the race box. Yet, a month ago or so, you wrote passionately that it was unacceptable for Asians students to do the same.</p>

<p>Let me get this straight.</p>

<p>You don’t have a problem with black students who want to be treated equally, but you do have a problem with Asian students who have the same wish?</p>

[arbiter213]

<p>To be fair, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out the ethnicity of Reina Tsuchiya or John Freeman.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Freeman is harder than Tsuchiya.</p>

<p>It could be either black or white. It could even be Asian.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>a month or so ago i conceded that if an asian applicant didn’t want asian to be seen as part of their resume, then they should leave it blank. But that they shouldn’t go to the extreme of changing their entire name for college admissions. </p>

<p>But i think that it is always better to check the race box.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>bump, any other input?</p>

[spirit892]

<p>I think that if a black person does better than a white person, they should be accepted to a college; if a white person does better than a black person, they should be accepted to college. Same with every other ethnicity. It should be based on merit and financial need, not on race.</p>

[k_amp_s]

<p>Tyler -

did anyone ever just stop and think that maybe the fact that the average SAT scores for the asian students is higher only shows that test scores tend to be asians greatest strength, and they may not be as strong in other fields?

</p>

<p>Ughh – a no. of studies have shown that Asian applicants are NO different with regard to ECs than the general applicant pool.</p>

<p>Btw, would you say the same thing for Jewish applicants (who have higher scores, on average, than WASP applicants) – and what about black immigrant students from Africa and the Caribbean, who are stereotyped as being “academically oriented”, and yet, the top universities admit them at significantly higher rates?</p>

<p>The majority of URM students at the top universities do NOT come from disadvantaged backgrounds. </p>

<p>I’m all for helping URM applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds, but I don’t see the justification of admitting a URM applicant with materially lower scores than the general pool of accepted applicants who has all the advantages of going to a good school, prep courses, educated parents, etc.</p>

<p>Btw, there are plenty of disadvantaged Asian applicants who live in ethnic ghettos and those w/o high enough scores get passed over for Asian applicants with high scored (reason why SE Asians are underrepresented).</p>

<p>From a 2004 article.

According to the College Board, 1,877 African American students nationwide scored higher than 1300 out of a possible 1600 on the SAT last year, compared with nearly 150,000 students overall who achieved that score. Minority students with higher SAT scores have become the target of frenzied competition between state and private colleges. </p>

<p>“Something is going on here that is larger than just this university,” said Ted Spencer, chief admissions officer at the University of Michigan. “We are all shooting for the same small group of students.”

<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2830-2004Nov21.html[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2830-2004Nov21.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Here are some interesting articles about black students at an affluent Cleveland suburban HS who lag behind their white classmates.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/[/url]”>http://www.eastbayexpress.com/2003-05-21/news/rich-black-flunking/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2000/03/15/27shaker.h19.html[/url]”>http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2000/03/15/27shaker.h19.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>While this doesn’t constitute “proof” – the top law schools, med schools, etc. also fight over the highest qualified black applicants (who despite having lower scores, as a whole, have higher acceptance rates).</p>

[JG863]

<p><a href=“http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/1998/02/20/Resources/Prof-To.Study.Low.Minority.Graduation.Rates-2167678.shtml[/url]”>http://media.www.dailypennsylvanian.com/media/storage/paper882/news/1998/02/20/Resources/Prof-To.Study.Low.Minority.Graduation.Rates-2167678.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>I think this is relevant…</p>

[sybbie719]

<p>OK JG,</p>

<p>you picked up a 9 year old article and call it relevant with definitely show that you have not read through the whole thread. </p>

<p>If would have just read the first page you would have found that the research has been done and it has been found that:</p>

<p>

For many years Harvard University, traditionally one of the nation’s strongest supporters of affirmative action, has produced the highest black student graduation rate of any college or university in the nation. But for some unexplained and possibly immaterial reason, Harvard slipped to second place in 2004. But now Harvard’s black student graduation rate has increased to 95 percent, once again the highest among U.S. colleges and universities. </p>

<p>Amherst College, a small liberal arts college in western Massachusetts, now has a black student graduation rate of 94 percent, the second highest in the nation. Last year Amherst had bested Harvard by two percentage points. Princeton University ranks third in the nation with a black student graduation rate of 93 percent. Six other highly ranked colleges and universities in the United States posted a black student graduation rate of 90 percent or above. They are Wellesley College, Brown University, Northwestern University, Washington University, Wesleyan University, and Williams College. </p>

<p>Eleven other high-ranking institutions have a black student graduation above 85 percent. They are Stanford University, Yale University, Dartmouth College, Davidson College, Columbia University, Duke University, Georgetown University, Smith College, Swarthmore College, the University of Virginia, and Wake Forest University (the university of Pennsylvania has a 85% graduation rate for blacks. </p>

<p>Academically selective institutions are almost always strongly committed to affirmative action in admissions, yet at the same time they tend to deliver a high black student graduation rate. Obviously, this undercuts the assertion made by many conservatives that black students admitted to our most prestigious colleges and universities under race-conscious admissions programs are incapable of competing with their white peers and should instead seek admissions at less academically rigorous schools. The fact that almost all entering black students at Harvard, Amherst, Princeton, and several other highly ranked colleges and universities go on to earn their diplomas shows that African Americans do compete successfully at our nation’s most prestigious institutions of higher learning.

</p>

<p>Had you read the article you would have found that </p>

<p>

</p>

<p>**Explaining the Differences in Black Student Graduation Rates **</p>

<p>Why are black graduation rates very strong at some high-ranking institutions and considerably weaker at other top-ranked schools? Here are a few possible explanations: </p>

<p>• Clearly, the racial climate at some colleges and universities is more favorable toward African Americans than at other campuses. A nurturing environment for black students is almost certain to have a positive impact on black student retention and graduation rates. Brown University, for example, although often troubled by racial incidents, is famous for its efforts to make its campus a happy place for African Americans. In contrast, the University of California at Berkeley has had its share of racial turmoil in recent years. The small number of black students on campus as a result of the abolishment of race-sensitive admissions has made many African Americans on campus feel unwelcome. This probably contributes to the low black student graduation rate at Berkeley. </p>

<p>• Many of the colleges and universities with high black student graduation rates have set in place orientation and retention programs to help black students adapt to the culture of predominantly white campuses. Mentoring programs for black first-year students involving upperclassmen have been successful at many colleges and universities. Other institutions appear to improve graduation rates through strong black student organizations that foster a sense of belonging among the African-American student population. </p>

<p>• Geographic location unquestionably plays a major role in black student graduation rates. For example, Bates College in Maine is located in a rural area with a very small to negligible black population. The same holds true for Grinnell College in Iowa, Oberlin College in Ohio, and Carleton College in Minnesota. Black student graduation rates at many of these rural schools are lower than at colleges and universities in urban areas. </p>

<p>• The presence of a strong and relatively large core of black students on campus is important. Among the highest-ranked colleges and universities, institutions that tend to have a low percentage of blacks in their student bodies, such as CalTech, Bates, Middlebury, Grinnell, Davidson, Carleton, and Colby, also tend to have lower black student graduation rates. Black students who attend these schools may have problems adjusting to college life in an overwhelmingly white environment. And these schools are less likely to have black-oriented social or cultural events to make black students feel at home. </p>

<p>• Curriculum differences also play an important role in graduation rates. Carnegie Mellon University and CalTech are heavily oriented toward the sciences, fields in which blacks have always had a small presence. It continues to be true that at many high-powered schools black students in the sciences often have been made to feel uncomfortable by white faculty and administrators who persist in beliefs that blacks do not have the intellectual capacity to succeed in these disciplines. </p>

<p>• High dropout rates appear to be primarily caused by inferior K-12 preparation and an absence of a family college tradition, conditions that apply to a very large percentage of today’s college-bound African Americans. But equally important considerations are family wealth and the availability of financial aid. According to a study by Nellie Mae, the largest nonprofit provider of federal and private education loan funds in this country, 69 percent of African Americans who enrolled in college but did not finish said that they left college because of high student loan debt as opposed to 43 percent of white students who cited the same reason.</p>

<p>Deep financial pockets enable some schools to provide greater financial aid than others. And this is a major factor in student graduation rates. Well-funded universities such as Princeton, which has the nation’s largest endowment per student and probably the nation’s most generous financial aid program for low-income students, will undoubtedly claim an advantage in black student retention and, subsequently, in producing high graduation rates. Clearly, the availability of a high level of financial aid shields low-income black students from financial pressures that may force minority students to leave college to fulfill family obligations and financial responsibilities.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blackstudent_gradrates.html[/url]”>http://www.jbhe.com/features/50_blackstudent_gradrates.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

</p>

[JG863]

<p>Yes. I did not read the whole thread, and I also I did not just say “it is relevant” but " I think is relevant…" instead, which implies uncertainty. I simply happen to stumble across the article and recalled the topic being discussed in this thread. I did not post to be ridiculed. </p>

<p>I apologize for not making myself clear and posting something I thought was of “some” use. It was not my intent to disturb.</p>

[TehRahk]

<p>To answer the question if there are any URMS that support AA. I know that this may sound weird but all the white kids in my African Heritage class supported AA. It was a relatively small class and many heartfelt discussion. There were many discussions about racism in America and I heard stories that I just couldn’t believe. I’m not saying that racism is a one way street. Blacks are still suffering from the past and a disproportionate amount of Hispanics have fallen into the disadvantaged people trap that knows no color.The fact of the matter is that people who are not a URM can’t fully understand how much of a uphill battle it is to suceed. </p>

<p>And as for African immigrants getting preferential treatment for Top Schools. I say do it… because it is a proven fact that it’s harder to get a job if your name is any African name compared to a John Smith. Given that this person is a US citizen. I think these people could have the power to inspire others to do well that are the same color.</p>

<p>I think that AA should be restructured promote social mobility, with a significantly lesser emphasis on just color. Taking in disadvantaged people of all races, unless the rich will continue to get richer and the poor poorer and that’s the bottom line. This situation is what we all want to avoid because it brings serious consequences.</p>

[hotpiece101]

<p>

And as for African immigrants getting preferential treatment for Top Schools. I say do it… because it is a proven fact that it’s harder to get a job if your name is any African name compared to a John Smith. Given that this person is a US citizen. I think these people could have the power to inspire others to do well that are the same color.

It’s also harder to get a job if your name is Laquita Washington. just saying…</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>sybbie,</p>

<p>

The small number of black students on campus as a result of the abolishment of race-sensitive admissions has made many African Americans on campus feel unwelcome. This probably contributes to the low black student graduation rate at Berkeley.</p>

<p>…</p>

<p>Many of the colleges and universities with high black student graduation rates have set in place orientation and retention programs to help black students adapt to the culture of predominantly white campuses.</p>

<p>…</p>

<p>And these schools (Caltech et al.) are less likely to have black-oriented social or cultural events to make black students feel at home

</p>

<p>My responses</p>

<ol>
<li>The JBHE seems to implicitly acknowledge that being a “URM” was worth quite a bit since they use causal language (i.e. The number of black students on campus was a result of race-neutral admissions.) And, they put their spin on the issue, noting that race-neutral admissions make black students feel “unwelcome.”</li>
</ol>

<p>Is preferential treatment the only way to make black students feel welcome? I don’t believe that.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>It looks like these schools are babying their black students. Apparently, it’s not good enough to have one orientation for all students, without regard to race, gender, ethnic affiliation, national origin, and religious identification. We must have separate orientations to make sure that some minorities can adapt to the culture of “predominantly white” campuses. For the record, there are such programs at Berkeley and LA. Do these acclimate the black students to “predominantly Asian” campuses?</p></li>
<li><p>Make black students “feel at home?” Doesn’t this run counter to the stated objectives of diversity, namely, interaction between students of different backgrounds and races? It looks like these schools don’t baby their black students.</p></li>
</ol>

[k_amp_s]

<p>

I think that AA should be restructured promote social mobility, with a significantly lesser emphasis on just color.

</p>

<p>Which is why black applicants from affluent or upper-middle class backgrounds shouldn’t need the artificial boost.</p>

<p>

It’s also harder to get a job if your name is Laquita Washington. just saying…

</p>

<p>Harder – African immigrants are stereotyped as hard working, quiet, etc. while black Americans are stereotypes as lazy, apt to complain, etc.</p>

<p>Anyway, AA in the workplace (for the most part) is completely different from AA for college admissions (in the former, AA is used to make sure that qualified minority candidates are not passed over simply on the basis of being a minority).</p>

<p>

Make black students “feel at home?” Doesn’t this run counter to the stated objectives of diversity, namely, interaction between students of different backgrounds and races? It looks like these schools don’t baby their black students.

</p>

<p>Then why admit so many African and Caribbean immigrants, who have completely different social/cultural ties/values than black Americans (not that black Americans all share common interests either)?</p>

<p>I love how universities keep coming up with all of these CONTRADICTING rationales.</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>haha if you guys aren’t going to read the thread, don’t post. Now you guys are just backtracking to the same things over and over again.</p>

<p>and honestly, graduation NUMBER is a better indicator of the success of AA then graduation rate. </p>

<p>*say before AA (out of 100 students at a university, say Harvard) 4 were black. And of those 4 black students 3 graduated, leaving a 75% graduation rate. But after AA of those 100 students, 12 were black. and of those 12 students, 8 graduated, a 66% graduation rate. While the enactment of AA may have caused graduation rate to drop, it caused the number graduating from Harvard to almost triple. That is a much better indicator of the success of AA then a different situation where instead of 4 black students being admitted, 2 were admitted and both graduated. which results in a 100% graduation rate, but a 50% decrease in the number of black students graduating. </p>

<p>Thats why graduation rates are TERRIBLE pieces of evidence that people use to attempt to discredit AA. And i highly doubt AA opponents can cite ANY incidence of AA causing a drop in the NUMBER of black graduates, or even the number remaining constant. And if more black students graduate from better universities, it completely discredits the attack that AA isn’t helping.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Tyler,</p>

<p>It’s all relative. Rates are important because generally, there isn’t an equal racial balance of students.</p>

<p>Let’s take an extreme example.</p>

<p>Say a university graduates 500 “under-represented” students and 400 regular students. Looks like the school’s doing a good job graduating their “under-represented” students, yes? But, it turns out that four years prior, 2,000 “under-represented” students entered and 500 regular students entered. Only twenty-five percent of the “under-represented” are graduating compared to eighty percent of the regular students. There are more graduates in the first group, but there were also more students who dropped out in the first group. Did the university really do that good of a job with respect to this group if three out of every four students failed to graduate?</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>i dont see how that was relevant to AA. you only used half of an example.</p>

<p>If, 2000 urm students were admitted and 500 graduated and before AA 500 urm students were admitted and 200 graduated, i would say that AA led to improvement because 300 additional urm students were able to graduate, even though the rate decreased. But that is an extreme example and a group where they are 4/5 of the student body isn’t underrepresented anymore…</p>

[madville]

<p>

Let’s take an extreme example.

</p>

<p>Instead, how about a more realistic hypothetical situation? What real life scenario are you going to find those types of urm to regular graduate percentages? The bottom line is, when urm’s get the opportunity in the more selective schools, they succeed. (Graduate) Establishing a culture of success for future generations of urm’s in selective academic institutions will take time. More time than some in these forums are willing to give.</p>

<p>I’ve seen some attempt to diminish the accomplishments of those urm’s graduating from selective schools. Citing the smaller number of those graduating with degrees in the (hard) sciences for one. While there is some validity to that claim, when you look at the number of terminal degrees acquired in the US, the majority of those are received by foreign born individuals or first, second generation decendants of immigrants. Much is made of of the worthiness of urm’s in college admissions, but many of those college bound, including those from affluent schools require remedial classes. US students, which had for many years, been at the pennacle of academic rankings, have drifted lower and lower when compared with other students from industrialized nations. Yet it appears to be so easy and fashionable to marginalize the worthiness of urm’s when it comes to who deserves to get into what school.</p>

<p>I guess my point is that there are so many other significant matters that need attention with regards to american education, than quivelling over the minescule opportunities made available to urm’s in higher learning.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Instead, how about a more realistic hypothetical situation? What real life scenario are you going to find those types of urm to regular graduate percentages?

</p>

<p>Touch</p>

[Tyler09]

<p>you don’t have to abolish racial preferences in order for those problems to be solved. That whole statement was completely bogus, and a little immature.</p>