My student attends a school that offers both AP and IB. He will complete the IB MYP in tenth grade then transition to AP. In our school, this represents max rigor available in STEM and he wants to do engineering. Our IB DP program is excellent for other HLs, including history. As a result, the school offers a course in tenth grade labelled “IB Honors US History/AP US History.” This allows the IB kids to take the APUSH test at school. However, only 5-6 IB kids per year get a passing APUSH score because the class does not teach to the test. The class is rigorous and involves a lot of critical thinking, but is more focused on IB DP prep.
I notice lots of posts on here that list AP scores as stats. I am considering having my kid take the CLEP test instead (which I think he will pass) since a low AP score would be an outlier. Recognizing that not all schools give credit for CLEP or 2s and 3s, I would appreciate any perspective on the way this would affect applications for more selective programs, if at all. I am wondering if there are advantages/disadvantages to no score versus low score. He will get an A in the class both semesters unless something goes completely sideways in the next two weeks.
Unless the college requires all AP scores to be included on the application - which I can count on one hand (MIT, Stanford, Caltech) - the applicant chooses to report any/all/none.
CLEP scores (or AP scores for that matter), generally weigh little to none in the admissions process, and I certainly wouldn’t take CLEP for admissions purposes.
And I’m going to be blunt, if a student is taking a course called IB Honors US History/AP US History and can’t be bothered to put in the work on their own to pass the AP test “because the class does not teach to the test,” then “more selective programs” may not be where they should be targeting their applications
There are hundred of ABET accredited engineering programs. Most are fantastic and many not hard admits. You will find outcomes similar at most.
So highest STEM rigor, if you are chasing it for better college, isn’t a necessity.
Engineering is math, math and more math. Make sure they have the foundation.
But there is zero reason to rush your kid, push your kid and game the system.
If they don’t get a good AP score, then they won’t get credit for the class. There’s really no reason to take the AP test in the class you are discussing but if he does and bombs, no biggy. Many suggest repeating classes anyway, especially in STEM. AP isn’t necessarily at a level you’ll see in college. Few colleges require an AP score and given many take them in 12th grade, decisions happen b4 you even have a score.
So what’s right for your student is what you should do - for them to be challenged but not overdone, to have time for friends and activities. Take college admissions out of the equation. Especially in engineering where short of a few schools, prestige isn’t a thing.
I am going to respectfully disagree here. The work load in our IB history classes is much more sophisticated and labor intensive than the corresponding AP only classes. But they do have a different focus. My student “could be bothered” to spend his extra time choosing to do test prep, but instead chooses to spend it following his passions, taking other college level courses and earning advanced certifications as well as working on real-world community service projects. I am suggesting CLEP for the credit benefits, not to be impressive. Many schools accept CLEP right alongside IB and AP. I have no idea whether he would even apply to elite colleges at this point, I am only asking whether no AP score or a 3 instead of a 5 really matters that much. This is a much more objective question than your assumptions about my student imply.
At 99% of schools - no. Not taking is a nothing burger short of knocking out a General Ed or elective. And engineering curriculums are so focused anyway, there’s not even an assurance of that.
And think of how many kids don’t even have an AP score at application or at least are certainly lacking scores - every single one of them Senior year.
Thank you for this perspective. We aren’t chasing anything at this point, but want to keep doors open. He is taking the highest rigor in STEM because he loves it. Honestly, we are very intrigued by several non-“elite” schools, and have another kid doing the state school/honors college route (as did we). BUT we also might qualify for aid due to the new income thresholds at some of these more selective schools. His perfect PSAT math score in 10th grade has colleges reaching out to him, and while I understand that is a marketing strategy and not a commentary on fit, I do not want to close doors over a 10th grade APUSH test when I see little advantage coming from any result. I have browsed some of your other engineering posts and always appreciate them. I may have more questions as time goes on.
I agree with you about the marketing. Assets may be a problem, not because we have any crazy amount but because our income comes from a sole proprietorship, because our retirement plan is diversified and because we bought our house during the recession and appreciation is high. I am not optimistic, but a few schools are in the super-reach-contingent-on-aid category. Our SAI is 20k with one in college, but I am guessing CSS will treat us differently. My older child was not interested in any schools that required CSS, so we don’t know.
This. I think it’s quite simple, AP scores where they either help during admissions or you get credit. My D19 took AP tests partly because at that stage her school graded harshly, so getting 5s on the history APs, for example, when her semester grades were a mix of As and Bs was probably useful.
If you don’t think you need the score to help with admissions, and you’re not particularly fussed about getting credit to use at college, I personally don’t see the need to spend the extra time for the test.
Is this your oldest kid? Yes, a lot of this is marketing. My younger one learnt from my older one to check the “do not contact” box on college board.
My second kid, but I think the first kid did check the do not contact box. I find the mail from lesser known places interesting, but we’ve definitely told our kid that this is targeted marketing.
Definitely look into schools with merit for NMF/NMSF. Keep in mind that the NMSQT is harder than the PSAT 10 and English is weighted double that of math, so it might be worth prepping with Erica Meltzer, Khan Academy, and the official qbank.
I’ll leave the testing question to others. I’d probably skip it myself.
But on need-based aid: I don’t think it’s just marketing at the very generous schools. I think it’s truly an attempt to communicate to people who thought they’d have no chance at aid that in fact they might. I guess that’s marketing in a sense, but not in the sense I think some people mean it.
The catch, of course, is that the formulas are different everywhere and there is a huge difference in aid given by the most generous schools vs typical schools for fairly affluent families. There aren’t many of the very generous schools, and admission is very difficult.
MIT and Princeton are usually the most generous for most families I think. I’d suggest running the NPC at both of those just to see if this will even matter for you, and to become aware of how the variables interact. If by diversified retirement savings, you men a significant chunk in taxable, that might be an issue for FA.
It’s a tad more difficult for business owners to get accurate results. But if the sole proprietorship is fairly simple and not a lot of expensing, depreciation, deductions involved you can usually get a good enough sense of things. You can run different scenarios to understand possible ranges, including adding back some business deductions or expenses if you think the FA office won’t allow those (possibilities here for sole proprietorship include cell, meals, transportation, home office deduction, health insurance deduction, although the latter is unlikely to be added back in my experience).
FWIW, I ran the following through the Princeton estimator:
2 parents
AGI $250k
Savings 20k
Taxable (non-retirement) investments $1 million
(Princeton ignores home equity and retirement savings; the latter could be fairly significant for a sole proprietor with access to a solo 401k for years).
1 other child in college at a cost of $25k.
Result: Estimated family contribution is $42k; grant aid is $53k.
Of course, Princeton is one of the best for need based aid among maybe a dozen (?) super generous schools, and the drop off can be significant after those. But depending on financial details this is something to be aware of
I really appreciate these responses. I feel like we may get financial packages all over the board, and luckily have affordable in-state safeties. Some kids have the temperament for applying and hoping for a long shot and others not so much. As it gets closer and my kid knows more about what he wants we will do more of a deep dive into particular schools.
My older child was accepted to a niche program at a private school (not at a fully funded school, or one of the schools now guaranteeing tuition). The school was highly selective for her major but moderate otherwise and she was above the 75th percentile in stats for the university overall. The NPC was way off for us, and although we had told our child the possibility of attending was contingent on scholarships and grants coming through, her devastation was very real when the price tag was just too high. (NPC numbers would’ve been fine). I am trying to proceed cautiously with #2.
Also, back to the original question..my kid decided to take the APUSH test. He is approaching high school pretty organically… making the choices that feel right for his personal growth and looking for a path that aligns. I think I will learn a thing or two from this kid by the time all is said and done.