Arab World boycots Denmark after Mohammed cartoon

Parent Cafe
61

<p>1000,</p>

<p>I do not know if you are posting this nonsense with the intention of dishonoring Muslims, but that is clearly the effect. Look at what you have said, and look at the effect it has had on those subjected to your hateful spew. I hope it is a prank. Otherwise, let me offer some advice. It may take a moment, but these things often do.</p>

<p>My Grandmother, an orthodox Muslim, lives with my family; her bedroom was next to mine through my high-school years. She prays at least 6-8 hours a day and always wears hijab. She never condemns, never judges and always wishes everyone the very best: Muslim, Christian, Hindu, atheist, agnostic. When ever she would hear that one of our neighbors (non-Muslims all) was sick or in a bad way, she would humbly pray for them, often for hours. She is the most MUSLIM women I have ever known, perhaps the most humble and gracious human I have ever known, and I can tell you that it breaks her heart to see what so many of you young Muslim boys have become: hooligans (my word, not hers). </p>

<p>When she watches the news at night she is visibly shaken by the hate and anger she sees amongst Muslim youth—and men—in the Middle East, Europe and apparently here too. She is worried and concerned and dejected, but leaves it in God’s hands. She lived through the Iranian revolution and the Iran/Iraq war, as did my mother. </p>

<p>We have counted quite a few Muslims as our closest friends. We have had great Muslim scholars to our house for dinner on social and religious occasions. They all say the same: too many Muslim youth have lost touch with the essence of their religion—which, as you know, means “submission,” the essence of which is manifest not at all in your posts of hate and anger.</p>

<p>The Prophet had no hate in him but for the hate of arrogance…his own. You speak of jihad. As you know there are two forms of Jihad. One is called the “GREATER JIHAD,” (jihad al akbar) the other the ‘lesser’ (jihad al asghar). The Greater Jihad is to be waged by all Muslims at all times against their own arrogance, hubris and ego; there is only one God my Muslim friend, and you are not it. Act accordingly.</p>

<p>When Hazrat Ali (son-in law of the Prophet—4th Caliph, 1st Imam) was assassinated, he did not want the man who’d just poisoned him killed, because he would not kill out of hate. During a battle, Hazrat Ali had defeated one of his enemies; the man was laying at his feet, but before Ali could lay upon him the coup de grace, the man spit in his face. Hazrat Ali sheathed his sword, turned and walked away from the dumbfounded man. Later his companions asked him why he turned and walked away from the man who had tried to kill him and he said that when he fought the man he fought him out of his duty, but after this man spit in his face, he became angry, and he could not kill anyone for his own anger, so he turned and walked away.</p>

<p>1000fists, turn and walk away. You have a troubled soul; release it through your faith, not your hated. This is your anger, this is not your religion. </p>

<p>salamu’alaikum</p>

62

<p>“She prays at least 6-8 hours a day and always wears hijab.”</p>

<p>FS, seveal months ago, we had a discussion about the position of the french establishment to ban the use of headscarfs in schools. At that time, it seems that this issue was controversial as it the use does not seem to be directed by the Qu-ran, but by very loose “recommendations” by ultra-conservative scholars of the need to cover ones’ “bosom”. Wearing the hijab is more or less a evidence that someone has decided or is forced to listen to fundamentalists, sometimes for mere shock and annoyance value when used in the Western world. </p>

<p>Do you know anything about this issue? </p>

<p>PS At that time, I was 100% in agreement with the decision in France, as the headscarf religious link is unproven.</p>

63

<p>“At least I hope to gain respect and admiration by my own people. I am looking foward to those military history courses in college”</p>

<p>1000 fists, religious differences have caused way too many wars. </p>

<p>Nobody should deny that the Muslim world should be treated with more respect by our Western world. Nobody will deny that the western culture is invasive and threatening to the Muslims. </p>

<p>Personally, I would think that you would earn more respect and admiration from your “own” people by pursuing ways to bring clashing worlds … together. Being an Muslim American, you are in an enviable position to use your ethnic background and your american education in the honorable pursuit of peace and increased understanding. </p>

<p>You did mention the massive contributions of Muslim scholars in the past. Use the remains of those contributions to find commonalities instead of differences. Earlier I mentioned -indirectly- Al Farabi, and I believe that understanding his philosophy on Aristotle may help you find a “non-military” path. </p>

<p>I am very happy to recognize that the Muslims salvaged a great part of what is called Western culture, and built massively on its base, before relinquishing it to Europe and help it graduate from its Dark Age. </p>

<p>I am not trying to preach. I am simply sending you a message from one youth to another. Stand your ground, but seek to understand our true differences for purpose of eliminating them instead of using them for conflicts. We have very different lifestyles, but our beliefs and values are a lot more common than we think. </p>

<p>Peace</p>

64

<p>I haven’t seen the actual comics but describing them form articles made my mom laugh, and I kind of snorted. But that’s because I love it when people make fun of religious figures. Satire is not meant to be real, but an exaggeration of a generalization. (the suicide bombers- virgins)</p>

<p>However, I think the issue here goes further than a comic depicting the prophet (PBUH) and freedom of speech, at least personally for me. I think to understand what is going on you have to look beyond simple explanations and generalizations.</p>

<p>(1) Just because other religions may not hold sacred things, it doesn’t mean that muslims shouldn’t, or that it’s wrong that they do. Muslims as a whole have faced a lot of persecution just for being MUSLIMS throughout the years, think the inquistion, even more recently think Bosnia, think China (their breakdown on religious minorities is pretty… cruel), think chechnya-- just like years of opression did with the jews-- being attacked from all sides has made muslims hold tighter to their identity- their religion- which they consider a part of their identity.</p>

<p>Some might argue that Islamic nations have always been a haven for muslims, so they should have never felt opressed, but anyone with the remotest idea of the history of the region knows that this is not true. Each of these countries has faced a lot of internal tension which has brought them to this stage. Think: Turkey and its ‘secularist’ anti-hijab policies (in a country where 99.8% of the population claims to be muslim-- and a significant portion are religious) I’ve known BRIGHT young women who could not attend university because they wore the hijab (same thing in EU but I’ll talk about that later). Think: Iran- The old pahlavi ‘Reza Shah’s’ attempt to ‘modernize’ Iran by banning hijab and implenting other ideas in his little dictatorship (backed by western nations) that the majority of the population simply HATED (eg. "the Brits owned ALL of Iran’s oil); after his son took rule he was kicked out by Mosaddeq who nationalized all of Iran’s oil and was elected the country’s PM, but then Pahlavi Jr. took back his throne by staging a coup with the help of CIA… the only reason the ‘ISLAMIC’ revolution came about was to UNITE all the dissenting factions (1 of which really took leadership and happens to rule the gov. now) and throw the West out.</p>

<p>Ok, I went off on a tangent… eek… But the big issue is not even that.</p>

<p>Anyways, I agree with the “I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it.” This comic is more than a little innocent though, it’s part of long series of ‘events’ staged to sort of offend and belittle muslims’ beliefs. In many European nations Muslims have sort of become second class citizens… From the bans on hijab, to the living conditions that young muslims citizens in many of these natiosn are forced to live in, without any assistance from the governments…and the EU constantly bullying the middle eastern nations into doing what it pleases. I could give a ton more examples with documents but alas I don’t have the time. Anyways my points is OF COURSE MUSLIMS ARE GOING TO BE ****ED OFF… it’s like everything Europe is doing now is somehow an attack on their values and beliefs. these protests aren’t JUST for the drawings-- this has been a means for people to VENT their angry emotions against what they feel is opression.</p>

<p>Anyways, I should go back to studying, agh senioritis!</p>

65

<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>Great question. First, regarless of what the Quran (Word of God, to Muslims) or hadith (sayings of the Prophet) advise, this is a cultural practice. This is evidenced by the fact that the practice is preformed differently from country to country, culture to culture. In Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia it is common that the woman be utterly and completely veiled excepting her eyes (presumably so she doesn’t trip fall and run into things in the performance of her life and duties). </p>

<p>However, the Quran does tell women to modestly cover their beauty. This has been, by many religious scholars, interpreted to mean her hair, as this was considered very provocative in early Arabia. Obviously, the statement is obtuse. What is precious beauty? Traditionally, we hold that it is in the eye of the beholder. In Iran, women simply wear longish coats in public (though many do wear chador—the long black gown—it is not enforced…same in Iraq I believe).</p>

<p>My grandmother, a very religious woman, wears a head scarf, and a waste length sweater, jacket or non-form fitting shirt, no more; often with strands of hair peeking out. She never advised me on my own dress which is New York/Montreal Modern/casual & dressy, but instead complimented me when I looked pretty, as she often did—no matter how covered or exposed the outfit.</p>

<p>She is a typical traditional Muslim, most of what you see happening now (the radical treatment of women’s public lives) is an indefensible innovation. </p>

<p>As to the French prohibitions: I believe they were disastrous. You do not combat a fundamentalist policy of telling women what to wear with another fundamentalist policy of telling them what they can’t wear. Same applies to all liberties—not just fashion.</p>

66

<p>Xiggi,</p>

<p>IMHO, not a religious war; a cultural and nationalist war. A war of modernity.</p>

67

<p>Post #65- Agreed. and very eloquently said. :)</p>

68

<p>A quick Anecdote on head coverings:</p>

<p>A woman doing her daily chores notices that a strange man has walked into her courtyard…shocked and shamed that her hair is exposed she quickly gathers up the skirt she is wearing and throws it over her head so she will not be enticing the strange man with her beauty. The man, on the other hand, is looking at a naked woman from the waist down, with her skirt over her head. ;)</p>

69

<p>FS, it it is a CULTURAL issue, it does not fall under the freedom of religion protection. </p>

<p>I believe that most people who seek to defend the universal use of the jihab use the religious card to advance their cause. This was particularly true in France. </p>

<p>I disagree that the position of France was disastrous. The hijab issue was blown out of proportion by fanatics who showed a lack of respect for the right of a state to implement local laws. For some nudism is a way of life, and may be part of their culture, but we still won’t allow it in public spaces.</p>

70

<p>

</p>

<p>Different cultures/time have their own interpretation of religion, eg. some eastern orthodox or even catholics have stricter dress codes than do their western counterparts (eg. American catholics). That is THIER INTERPRETATION of modesty recommended in the bible. A significant population of the muslim-world considers SOME FORM of headcovering while covering the face is more localized… I don’t see how you can say the pratice does not fall under the freedom of religion protection when it is a part of those people’s religion and values.</p>

71

<p>

Is wearing a scarf = to being nude? How about a bandana? </p>

<p>Drawing simplified parallels like this is what makes the problem more complex.</p>

72

<p>Paraiso, if you call the deposed Shah a dictator, what epithet do you have for the current political and religious leadership in today’s Iran?</p>

73

<p>Paraiso, you missed the point … entirely. </p>

<p>If a school imposes a prohibition to bandanas, there is no possible defense. The prohibition in France was against ALL headgear, and was not discriminatory in any way or shape. Trying to fabricate a case based on very loose and unproven religious interpretations did not work. </p>

<p>Freedom of religious, political, and cultural expression has its limits.</p>

74

<p>

</p>

<p>I didn’t call the ‘deposed’ shah a dictator. I called his dad a dictator,</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>quoting Wikipedia, notice that the article hasn’t been changed for a while. (<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavi_government[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pahlavi_government&lt;/a&gt;) :slight_smile: I am familair with the history… and to me it resembles sort of like Saddam’s rise to power no? The state of the estate also qualifies as what you, I imagine would call a ‘dictatorship’.</p>

<p>The ‘desposed’ shah led a monarchy, and now there is pseudo-theorcratic democracy or the better term “constitutional Islamic Republic”.</p>

75

<p>You skated around the question. </p>

<p>What do you call the current leadership in Iran?</p>

76

<p>

</p>

<p>You are trying to built a debate based on simplified arguments that bear no use when PLACED IN CONTEXT. That’s not the way to make up laws… when you make up laws you have to take the FRAMEWORK into account.</p>

<p>Just to put things in somewhat of a context: Here we have a population that makes up a <em>large minority</em> of country, they have a practice (there are very weak arguments for why it is harmful-- all of them can be easily refuted), now we also know that this government is upset by the fact that these people don’t seem to integerate into it’s society and pick up it’s values, so instead of adjusting itself to ENCOMPASS them, and represent them (as it is THEIR government too), we find that it attacks one of their valued ‘religious’ practices, because the rest of the society doesnt agree with it.</p>

77

<p>Um…

Do you ignore half of my post or did you not see that I said:</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category%3AForms_of_government[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category%3AForms_of_government&lt;/a&gt;

  1. Dictatorship
  2. Monarchy
  3. Islamic democracy</p>

<p>See? they all qualify.
[ps. I have to go in a few minutes so don’t think I am ignoring the following posts]</p>

78

<p>Paraiso, I encourage you to seek some facts about the issues in France. </p>

<p>Also, you may want to research the issue of extremist organizations paying muslim families to impose the wearing of the jihab. You may also want to find out WHEN this started to become an issue in France and in other countries. Lastly, you may want to research how popular the use of the jihab is in the FEMALE population throughout the world. </p>

<p>And with this, I’ll leave this debate.</p>

79

<p>Did anybody hear about how Bill O’Reilley compared the Koran to Mein Kampf? I am pretty sure this is how the true side of America thinks.</p>

<p>Fountain Siren, being a moderate Muslim is ideal but no longer possible under the circumstances. It was because Muslims were too moderate that Palestine is what it is today. We took too much **** being nice, now its time to eliminate anybody who comes in our way, since nobody sympathizes or gives support to us, not that we need them anymore. We must act before things get even worse.</p>

<p>Xiggi, the US is a bully. It can attack whoever it wants almost whenever. Just the way they attacked Iraq unfairly, they might attack another Muslim country just because they have the ability. What’s next? Pakistan? Turkey? Indonesia?</p>

<p>TheDad, since you seem to know so much about Islamic history, maybe you also know this: during the “Golden Age of Islam,” Islam was the most ADVANCED civilization of the time, and they even surpassed CHINA. Europe was the least advanced during the period.</p>