<p>My D’s high school’s goal is to be number one in the state. Obviously, the way to do this is to have as many students take AP courses and AP tests. The school is already number one in the county and is very competitive. Kids who are not taking AP courses are made to feel inadequate…like Honor classes are not good enough anymore. Why do our kids have to feel like they have to take college biology in high school…instead of taking it in “college”? I remember senior year was the year for kids (who have worked hard enough to fulfill most of their high school requirement) to relax and have fun before they start college. Instead, I see my D squeeze in every minute of her senior day reading 3-4 chapters of AP Biology, answering 20 essay questions for AP Lit, studying 5 chapters for AP Calculus…all in one night after coming home at 7pm because of her ECs!!! Now, I understand that there are kids out there who are naturally gifted and should have challenging courses available to them. I just wish the schools did not put so much emphasis on these AP classes to ALL students. AP classes are not for everyone. My D is by no means highly intelligent, but she is very disciplined and works hard. However, I worry about my other kids who are “average” students. Already, in their elementary and middle schools, the large part of the class room time is to prepare them for assessment tests. So instead of teaching our kids independent and creative thinking, we teach them how to be good test takers and people pleasers. Bottomline is if students want to take AP classes, let them…but if students feel that it is not for them, then they should not feel forced to take them.</p>
<p>I welcome any thoughts on this, both from parents and students. For all students who have posted all your AP courses on CC, congratulations on all your efforts…but if you had a choice and AP courses was not a criteria for college acceptance, would you still have taken the course or waited until college and how would you have spent your extra time? Thanks!</p>
<p>Good post. Back in the day, we didn’t even have AP courses. Now my DD’s high school is pushing IB. The kids have a choice in 11th grade of AP History, IB History, or History through the local community college via dual enrollment. The AP/IB teachers are shoving that down the kid’s throats telling them if they take comm college and get out earlier (it is a zero period class) they will use the extra time to go to the beach and have sex. (Apparently they are worried and need to keep the enrollment of AP classes up). In the meantime, the GCs are telling the kids to take the comm. college. I’m telling my kid that we will decide as a family what is the best course for what she plans for the future. And yes, the kids who take “just honors” classes are made to feel that they are not doing enough. And heaven forbid, my kid actually didn’t take geometry in 8th grade so she is already “behind.”…</p>
<p>Actually at my son’s school it is very hard to get into AP classes. They are normally recommended for straight A students starting Sophmore year. If you did not take AP classes Sophmore year they are very hard to get into after that. You must appeal to a teacher and get a recommendation from more than one source.</p>
<p>I personally think it’s ridiculous to have to take a full load of AP courses. Many high schools have excellent reputations which do not require this or even suggest that this should be done.</p>
<p>PrimtimeMom, you are right. It is crazy to take a full load of AP courses. Unfortunately sometimes a school administrator is on a push that has nothing to do with the kids and everything to do with the superintendent’s ego…thus the reason for our HS spending a huge amount of money to bring in an IB program that the teachers didn’t want and a small (very small) percentage of the kids will actually be participating in. Sigh.</p>
<p>EBEEE: You are right. It should come down to what we, as parents, and our child feel is best for them and their future…not what others tell them is best for them. Unfortunately, the competitive nature of college admissions adds fuel to the fire. Hopefully more parents will get off the “be the best” band wagon and join those of us who feel that developing our kids as a whole person is more important than test scores.Thanks for your input.</p>
<p>PRIMETIME MOM: I wish our school was as selective as yours. Even if a teacher does not recommend a student to take an AP course, all the parent has to do is write a letter and the student is in!! And yes, my other D missed out on taking Geometry in 8th grade…had to take high school algebra instead. Sigh…the madness begins!</p>
<p>Funny you should post this since it’s my peeve du jour. </p>
<p>I wouldn’t say that our hs — 3,000 pop, decent but not magnet or “feeder” CA public — forces AP on students, but the GCs do announce at various parent meetings that top UCs (and privates) want to see the most rigorous course load possible. The school just last year started offering one AP class in sophomore year (World HY) and it was clear that if a student wanted to be competitive, he or she better take it. S1 took 5 AP classes senior year barely breaking a sweat and S2 is a bright kid, so I said, take it…a B equals an A in the nonAP World Hy so why not go for it? For some reason, the school does not offer honors WH. Ah yes, actually, I do know why. It’s because until last year with the advent of the AP WH, the prevailing opinion in the social service dept of the school was that it was more desirable, more egalitarian, more democratic, for students of ALL abilities to be educated in the same classroom so they resisted offering honors classes until the district forced the issue and required the one AP class as an alternative to basic WH. </p>
<p>I now realize how restricting this class is with all the additional work required. S2 has a couple music-related ECs that involve night-time rehearsals and it’s been hard to accommodate the rehearsals, nightly instrumental practice, and the workload of the AP class. Right now, it’s the only class he’s not getting an A in, but it has created a lot of pressure and I truly wonder if it was worth it. OTOH, the basic WH class has assignments that resemble sixth-grade-make-a-diarama type work, whereas the AP class is forcing him to really think and work hard. He is definitely getting a better education in the AP class than in the nonhonors, nonAP WH class, but it involves a lot of stress and the loss of time spent on other interests. Okay, no resolution here but thanks for the opportunity to vent.</p>
<p>BTW, your kids take geometry in 8th grade?? In our district, the highest you can go in middle school is algebra 1; if you need geometry in 8th grade, you have to get yourself over to the high school during zero period at the crack of dawn. Just out of curiousity, what region of the country are you living in?</p>
<p>We live in Maryland. Located in the Mid-Atlantic, our college selections are huge with all the great northeastern and southern schools. And being implants from the west coast, we are not that familiar with all the colleges here. So college applications for my daughter who is not quite at the top 10% (more like 12%) has been a grueling process. She’s taken most of all the core AP courses available, great ECs and leadership experience…but does not do well with SAT tests at all. She has been the one who wants to take the AP courses…but, I feel, for the wrong reason (to get into a selective college). She just feels that she is not a shoe-in in any of her reach schools and does not want to settle for the schools her other peers are applying to and who do not have the same drive as she does. So finding her match school has been difficult. Unfortunately, our GC has been no help at all (but that’s another thread).</p>
<p>Sorry for the long answer. But the pressure for these kids is just mind-blowing to me. Sometimes, I wonder if the whole idea of letting her take a year off and join the peace corps would be better. Sigh…</p>
<p>Reading this, and thinking about how it works at our local h.s. (APs are offered, but they are not crammed down anyone’s throat; in fact, many of the students are now opting NOT to take the AP exams, so we have a problem at the other end) it seems to me this is more a function of the type of community/school district each of us lives in. If you chose to live in a place because of the reputation of the schools, chances are you’re in an environment that is competitive and your school has many high performing kids. Makes it harder for kids to stand out academically, so they are loading up on the hardest courses. It’s also a result of hearing the mantra that colleges want to see a student take the most challenging courses offered. </p>
<p>The problem is parallel to the one where people say it’s so hard to get into colleges. It IS hard to get into 100 or so colleges in the U.S. The other 2,000 accept most students. What was it Eleanor Roosevelt said - no one can make you feel inferior without your acceptance or compliance? No one can make you feel you have to take all APs. It’s hard to be the only one who goes against received wisdom but we should all try to remember to do what’s best for our own kids, not blindly follow the herd. I do think it’s true that the teachers have their own turf to protect and am never surprised when AP teachers try to drum up business. In our school, teachers are paid more for teaching AP courses and the general courses often have discipline problems. I can see why they encourage kids to enroll in AP.</p>
<p>newdawn6, you picked the wrong state to move to. Maryland is hopelessly addicted to AP and is developing an IB habit as well. Especially in Montgomery County.</p>
<p>I am in a rural area on the Central coast of CA. Our school only sends about 25% of it’s graduates to 4 year schools. Our administration is pushing the IB/AP thing. As far as geometry in 8th grade, when my oldest was going through middle school you had to go to the HS at zero to take geometry if you wanted it in 8th grade. Mine wasn’t ready for it, took algebra. By the time my DD came along three years later the parents had pushed and pushed till the middle school teacher was forced by administrators to get her credential for geometry. She has really struggled to teach it and it shows when the kids take the standardized tests…</p>
Well, in the scenario jazzymom speaks of, her son was forced to take the AP. All schools should have at least one middle ground honors level between the generic course and the AP offering.</p>
<p>We have a local school district who do force students to take APs( they tell them they can drop if it is too much- but then don’t allow them to)- & then their ranking in the Newsweek listing is trumpeted.</p>
<p>I- don’t know what I think
Older daughter attended private school- didn’t have APs- she did well- however, I htink it was a struggle for some to keep up with the work load-
As it was a fairly rigourous school even without APs, her GPA IMO was lower than if she had attended a school with APs that weighted, and that affected qualification for some scholarships.</p>
<p>My younger daughter is taking an AP class- this is amazing, considering a few years ago she was in special education.
Last year as a sophomore, she took AP Euro, with a great teacher who worked closely with her to help her succeed- both the AP Euro teachers are excellent IMO.
She also took a Marine Biology class, which wasn’t AP ( and they don’t offer AP Marine Biology), historically I beleive that they wanted to have their own curriculum ( they have very strong teaching), and looking at it, it easily seems comparable to a college course.
This year however- she is having much more difficulty with APUSH. The teaching style is pretty hands off, and she is having to struggle to find the support she needs. ( she has difficulty processing the information)
However, although her school does have three levels of Us history & she originally was registered for the honors level ( and getting As), she felt that she wanted to take the AP class- so as some may remember, we got her transferred earlier this year.
I am wondering though- if that pressure was actually what she wanted to do, or something she felt pressured to do, because many of her friends are taking 3 or more Ap level classes.</p>
<p>Many of her friends also attended a particular middle school in the district, which has a quite rigorous program- I remember their parents commenting that they had homework on into the night many weeks- so I think for those students, they expect to have heavy courseloads in high school.
For the students like my daughter however though, who had multiple choice tests in middle school & rarely any papers or essays- it is a steep learning curve to develop the skills needed for the massive amount of reading for an AP class.</p>
<p>However- I do think that AP classes can assist with success in college- my older daughter who went to a college that required massive amounts of reading felt that she was at a disadvantage for a time compared to students who had exposure to AP classes in high school</p>
<p>Just realized I should have written “social science” department, not social service dept, but I guess the meaning was clear I guess. </p>
<p>SS:
Yes, unfortunately, that department resisted for many years offering any honors-advanced classes at all except for AP US and AP Euro because the head of the department believed that “mixed ability” classes were better overall or more democratic or something and other teachers just voted with her. She retired last year, but we still don’t have honors or AP offerings in govt or economics and only the choice of AP history and non-honors history. There had been efforts in the past to get an honors or AP economics class, but it always failed in the faculty forum vote. Don’t get me started. </p>
<p>newdawn:<br>
It sounds like your oldest D’s school is a real pressure cooker and that’s too bad, even if she is rising to the challenge. Is she complaining about the stress or are you just feeling it for her? It sounds like she is just doing what she sees her peer group doing in a competitive school so if she isn’t stressing out, maybe you ought to step back, stop worrying and let her go at it. Just provide her with moral support and snacks. It’s important to be realistic about applications, though, and make sure there are match and safety schools she would be happy to attend (you could post another thread with more details about what type of college/majors she’s interested in) since reach schools become even reachier when a student is applying from a very competitive high school. </p>
<p>To answer your initial question, I think my older son would have chosen to take fewer APs in favor of more varied classes purely for interest — computer art, drawing, TA for a favorite teacher, nonhonors military history instead of AP Euro — instead of loading up his senior year with all honors and AP classes, but he decided he wanted a shot at very selective colleges and he felt that’s what he had to do. S2, a soph now, will probably only take the APs that make sense to him: chemistry, english, a language, and music theory; I don’t think he’ll load up in the same way the other one did.</p>
<p>As an A.P. teacher (U.S.) I thought I would add my .02 cents worth to this debate. Much of the “A.P. monster” that has been created has been done so by the public and the media. When the public puts so much emphasis on measurements of excellence such as test scores school systems become very conscience of headlines and the media.</p>
<p>The current push for expansion of A.P. has been done as a direct reaction to Jay Mathews’ Challenge Index. I’m not saying that Jay is necessarily entirely to blame for the current situation, but his Challenge Index hasn’t helped. Let’s face it, much of the public bases its’ perception of school systems from headlines and media reports. If Jay Mathews annoints a school as excellent based upon the number of students it has enrolled in either A.P. our IB courses many parents and other taxpayers are going to jump on that. Principals and superintendents naturally are going to point to this objective measure of excellence as evidence that their school/system is delivering a quality education.</p>
<p>On the other hand I do happen to agree with Jay Mathews on this point. Most students with average or above average ability will benefit in the long run from having taken A.P. courses. This has nothing to do with the scores on the exam and everything to do with their preparation for college. Absolutely most students who take A.P. courses will be stronger readers, more proficient writers and be better able to think critically for their experience. I am wholeheartedly convinced that this is true. </p>
<p>What I do have a problem with is the filling of A.P. courses with students of limited ability, who have little or no work ethic, or who just are not ready from a developmental standpoint simply for the sake of improving the ranking of a school on Jay Mathews’ index. </p>
<p>I equally have a problem however who complain that A.P. courses are too hard or too demanding. As A.P. teachers we have a responsibility to the integrity of the A.P. program to maintain high standards. This is especially galling when teachers the year before have recommended that a student not take an A.P. course and the parent and kid insist. As far as I’m concerned I have no sympathy for a kid who is in over their head after they were told that was likely to be the case. I will offer them the same help and support as I would any other student, but no more. Parents ultimately have the right to approve or disapprove of their son or daughter’s enrollment in an A.P. course. If you do not feel your son or daughter is ready, then simply tell them no. If their teacher does not feel your son or daughter is ready for A.P. trust their professionalism and their judgement.</p>
<p>My S really LOVED APs & took all those he could fit into his schedule. He took 2 in JR year & 5 in SR year. He was happy that the teachers in those classes really wanted to teach the subject matter & the kids in the class ostensibly wanted more in-depth coverage of the material. He was always frustrated that much of HS was too superficial for his tastes & hoped he’d have more opportunity for “depth” in APs & college.</p>
<p>He enjoyed his APs & found them interesting but not overly taxing in time or energy (unfortunately he didn’t really get the depth he had hoped for even in the APs). We did check with his grade-level counselor about whether it would be too arduous a load with marching band for SR year, but she said to just trust S & allow him to make his choices. It worked out fine.</p>
<p>Our school district is one that pushes AP. Any student who wishes to sign up for an AP class is allowed and encouraged to. All students who take the class are required to take the exam which is paid for by the school system. An “A” in an AP class=6 pts. The reason most students take the class because of the gpa/class rank boost. Also most of the top students took geom. in 8th grad. and so start AP math in Jr. year.</p>
<p>S1 graduated in 2005 with 7 AP’s. He did fine with it but is a very laid back student who doesn’t tend to stress over things. In his Sr. yr. took some totally unweighted classes just for fun e.g. “Team Sports” as did most of his friends who were also good students.</p>
<p>I think kids are piling on more and more AP’s each year just to keep up. My neighbor’s kid will graduate with 10 AP’s this year. He is an “A” student and yet his class rank (10/475) is lower than my S1 was in 2005 with 3 less AP’s. Each year they seem to be taking more which makes the competition greater. It’s a catch-22. </p>
<p>S2 is an average student (Not CC average, truly average). His academic drive is most often in reverse and yet when he registered for classes last spring he said he thought he needed to take some AP classes. I was stunned. I know he had no real desire to take these classes. It was only because the GC’s push it and all the best students take loads of them making the average student feel as if he is really sub-par if he doesn’t take some too. It seems Honors is not Honorable enough anymore.</p>
<p>One factor though is that there is such a wide variance from school system to school system or even school to school as to how much rigor there is in an Honors class.</p>
<p>Theoretically at least that isn’t the case with A.P. and IB. I know in reality this isn’t always true, but college board is trying to address that with their new audit that’s going in to effect this year. </p>
<p>Let’s face it, College Board is also all for increasing the number of students in A.P. courses because it brings in more money for them. I know they claim to be not for profit but I’m not totally convinced.</p>
<p>I don’t know what would you rather have… a school district that just wants the kids out the door? or one that pushes them out the door and into a college classroom? </p>
<p>Coming from a district where I feel the emphasis is just get them out of here compared to where some of you are complaining about the rigor other districts encourage, I don’t know what you are complaining about. </p>
<p>AP classes will help your child during college years without doubt. AP forces kids to make a choice, homework now and funtime later. AP classes also mean merit dollars in many cases. A little more rigor now means less money later. </p>
<p>My kids had 5 and 7 AP classes jr and sr years of HS. Both worked hard, spent a lot of free time with the nose in a book. This help translate a relatively free college education for both. The AP classes in HS had a lot to do with this. </p>