are colleges racist?

[Dad_of_3]

<p>

Aiming to maintain an ethnic balance that reflects the racial makeup of the general American population is in fact the one possible approach to college admissions that offers equal protection to all races. It offers guaranteed proportional representation, which is in my opinion quite fair. Fairer than necessary, according to some.

</p>

<p>Ghostt, would you support this approach when it comes to selecting athletes to the basketball teams? Or to expand the scope further, will you extend it to other areas, say the Olympic sprint teams? What about the unemployed or the prison systems - would you consider it fair to aim for guaranteed proportional representation by tilting the scales so that so that we try to keep ORMs (in these areas) out, while making it more likely for URMs to get in?</p>

[johnwesley]

<p>

My point is simple. In the pre-civil rights era, USA was flourishing as a country even though blacks didn’t have equal protection. Reactionaries would point to the success and claim that if the system is not broken, no need to fix it. But the system was indeed broken, even though the output was not.</p>

<p>Hence, pointing out that HYPSM remain great academic institutions is not sufficient, if they do not offer equal protection to all races.

</p>

<p>Got it. But, here’s the problem: you’re now positing that the good `ol, post-civil rights cleansed USA is a more just place racially as a whole than Harvard University. That’s just plain counter-intuitive. Even Fabrizio acknowledges that problems still exist in his part of the country. I know they still exist in New York State (though it’s a little better in The City.)</p>

[Ghostt]

<p>

Ghostt, would you support this approach when it comes to selecting athletes to the basketball teams? Or to expand the scope further, will you extend it to other areas, say the Olympic sprint teams?

</p>

<p>No, I would not. Why do you ask?</p>

<p>By the way, America’s justice system is heavily biased against people of color, whose trials are much more likely to end in conviction, so yes, I would consider it fair to address that problem. Necessary even. Long overdue.</p>

[mathmom]

<p>I absolutely think too many STEM majors will ruin Harvard, I don’t care if they are Asian or not. I think there could be more Asians at Harvard, but no I wouldn’t want to see Harvard 50%+ Asian. If that makes me racist so be it. I absolutely think Harvard could have fewer whites, but frankly I’d rather see a greater portion of people from lower socio-economic classes and more of the underrepresented minorities.</p>

<p>I am not at all bothered by the fact that college admissions is not a totally objective system. It probably benefited one of my kids and hurt the other, for what that’s worth.</p>

[Dad_of_3]

<p>

No, I would not. Why do you ask?

</p>

<p>I was trying to understand if you felt “It offers guaranteed proportional representation, which is in my opinion quite fair” applies across the board, and am curious why it is fair sometimes and why it isn’t at other times.</p>

[skrlvr]

<p>

If the short supply of STEM talent in the USA is indeed true, surely the nation’s top schools should do something to help and fix it? ]

</p>

<p>Well, to single out the E part of STEM, there are lots of top schools for engineering degrees, and some of the usual suspects of ‘top schools’ don’t make the typical lists (such as US News) for top engineering programs–Harvard and Yale, for example.</p>

<p>There are schools that do, however, that just don’t have that ‘name dropping’ flavor to them. Schools such as Georgia Tech, University of Illinois, University of Michigan, Purdue, Carnegie Mellon, University of Texas, University of Minnesota make the top ten lists for various engineering specialities.</p>

<p>I understand your point about schools like Harvard and Yale having some kind of network for job opportunities, but do you think that employers wouldn’t know that a engineering degree from Georgia Tech is probably better than one from Yale?</p>

<p>Harvard seems to be doing very fine for itself without being in the typical top ten lists for degrees like engineering. If there really is a shortage, then Georgia Tech or Michigan or Minnesota can step up to fill the gap. And STEM majors should be migrating to those schools that provide the best training.</p>

<p>Is this really about getting excellent training, or is it about getting into a prestigious school?</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

Got it. But, here’s the problem: you’re now positing that the good `ol, post-civil [sic] rights cleansed USA is a more just place racially as a whole than Harvard University. That’s just plain counter-intuitive. Even Fabrizio acknowledges that problems still exist in his part of the country. I know they still exist in New York State (though it’s a little better in The City.)

</p>

<p>Why wouldn’t I acknowledge that problems still exist in Georgia? I’ve simply disagreed that they are unique to or worse in Georgia / the South, more generally.</p>

[Ghostt]

<p>

I was trying to understand if you felt “It offers guaranteed proportional representation, which is in my opinion quite fair” applies across the board, and am curious why it is fair sometimes and why it isn’t at other times.

</p>

<p>Because I do not treat non-profit universities, whose aim is to provide education, as I treat professional basketball teams, whose aim is to make money, or prisons, whose aim is to contain criminals.</p>

<p>By the way, it was IndianParent who suggested that universities should “offer equal protection to all races.” I merely argued that they already do, and noted that some people don’t see providing equal protection to all races as something that should be on the social agenda of non-profit universities. You seem to be one such person. Good for you. Comparing apples to orange waterproofing materials, however, is still not an effective way to argue your point.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I think there could be more Asians at Harvard, but no I wouldn’t want to see Harvard 50%+ Asian. If that makes me racist so be it.

</p>

<p>At least you came out and said it.</p>

<p>Edit</p>

<p>“It” referring to your not wanting to see Harvard becoming 50%+ Asian.</p>

[woeishe]

<p>This is a tired issue. Why stop at race? Maybe person born on a certain month are underrepresented. Maybe left-handed people are underrepresented. Look, I just came back from Atlanta this weekend and it seems that blacks, white, hispanics, asians, etc.are getting along just fine(Granted, Atlanta is one of the trendiest/liberal cities in the south). Affirmative Action might have been needed back when racial discrimination was at it’s highest but now it’s hardly needed and most limits are self-imposed.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

First and foremost, I think there is already an oversupply of STEM majors (in certain fields) that is only going to become more tangible as more and more engineers enter the job market.

</p>

<p>Why do you think so, when major news organizations think otherwise?</p>

<p>[Our</a> STEM Major Shortage - TIME](<a href=“http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2074024,00.html]Our”>http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2074024,00.html)</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Because I do not treat non-profit universities, whose aim is to provide education, as I treat professional basketball teams, whose aim is to make money, or prisons, whose aim is to contain criminals.

</p>

<p>What about proportional representation in the athletic recruits of non-profit universities, whose aim is to provide, I would presume, athletic education (in addition to other stuff)?</p>

[Bay]

<p>

Affirmative Action might have been needed back when racial discrimination was at it’s highest but now it’s hardly needed and most limits are self-imposed.

</p>

<p>If private colleges do not think it is needed to provide a benefit to the student body, then they will stop using it. There is no requirement to use it.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I understand your point about schools like Harvard and Yale having some kind of network for job opportunities, but do you think that employers wouldn’t know that a engineering degree from Georgia Tech is probably better than one from Yale?

</p>

<p>STEM majors often work in non-STEM fields. I believe some 40% of the graduating class of Harvard went for banking and consulting? Many, many STEM majors in this group. So you can well understand why a Harvard degree is attractive.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

What about proportional representation in the athletic recruits of non-profit universities, whose aim is to provide, I would presume, athletic education (in addition to other stuff)?

</p>

<p>This repetition really is getting lame. You already asked this question about a hundred pages ago.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I wouldn’t want to see Harvard 50%+ Asian.

</p>

<p>Thank you for your honesty. I wish others on this forum were open and honest like you about how they truly feel about Asians. Instead, all we hear is how there is no racism.</p>

<p>Of course, having 50%+ Caucasians in Harvard is always OK. In fact, proportional representation is needed to maintain that.</p>

<p>Right, Ghostt?</p>

[Bay]

<p>

Of course, having 50%+ Caucasians in Harvard is always OK

</p>

<p>Harvard doesn’t have 50%+ Causcsians, so obviously it is not OK</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Maybe they believe that one essential aspect of social responsibility is to provide a thriving divinity school in a relatively God-less culture.</p>

<p>Why does every private college have to share your vision of social responsibility? By whose authority do you presume that?

</p>

<p>They don’t have to share it at all. Perhaps as you say their vision of social responsibility is to not help the nation bridge the talent gap in STEM (which would create jobs) even in the middle of 9% unemployment, and instead maintain a divinity school in a relatively god-less culture. I just find that vision rather puzzling. That’s all.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

I just find that vision rather puzzling. That’s all.

</p>

<p>That’s all? Really? We thought you found that vision to be racist!</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Got it. But, here’s the problem: you’re now positing that the good `ol, post-civil rights cleansed USA is a more just place racially as a whole than Harvard University. That’s just plain counter-intuitive. Even Fabrizio acknowledges that problems still exist in his part of the country. I know they still exist in New York State (though it’s a little better in The City.)

</p>

<p>Oh, I am not positing that at all. I am merely saying that treating all races equally was a great thing to come out of the civil rights movement, and I wish it was strictly followed everywhere. Others may disagree, and believe that treating different races differently is right, as it was in the pre-civil rights era.</p>