<p>
The question was decided by the Supreme Court in 2003, in two case involving the University of Michigan.</p>
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</p>
<p>Having straddled the physical sciences AND the social sciences, it is always amusing to me when physical scientists demand exact controlled experiments from social scientists.</p>
<p>The only way to get to the proof that you want, bovertine, is to ban AA in the Elite Us, let that turn for a decade or so, and see what the result is. I am all for it. You should be too, if you believe that AA has no impact on the composition of the student body at any Elite U.</p>
<p>Are you?</p>
<p>
Then carry on. It is a philosophical question more than an empirical one. As for me, I personally have no interest in discussing that on a pointless thread which involves maybe 15 real participants (primarily IP posting 80 times daily). Most posters haven’t changed their opinion an iota.</p>
<p>If and when the courts take this up again you’ll either jump for joy or continue stomping your feet. In the meantime, if I cared about it I’d try to do something about it. I would certainly know how to go about working to change an inequity I felt passionate about, and it wouldn’t be on CC.</p>
<p>I only came back on because I was interested in the plethora of studies IP is privy to.</p>
<p>"Wow! So many people admitting today that colleges are unjustly giving seats from Asians to URMs! Couldn’t have imagined this a week back, when the mantra was that that simply was not happening! "</p>
<p>I don’t know about the “unjustly” part, but wasn’t it about a week ago when we calculated the actual number of “stolen seats” that would be redistributed from URM’s to whites and Asians without AA?</p>
<p>and since I’m jumping in again, sewhappy I would like to hear more from your BIL about this;</p>
<p>“MY BIL the latino md hates AA, says it undercuts his accomplishments constantly and undercuts his efforts in parenting his kids to become achievers.”</p>
<p>That seems so strange to me. Your BIL and many other URM’s might move in totally different circles than the majority, but i don’t think the majority are effected by AA in a direct way at all. I think if you did a random poll of 100 black people they would have NO idea what you are talking about, and I have NEVER met a black parent who tells their kids, "don’t worry; you will be judged more easily than your peers; you can relax and not worry about achieving because your black. </p>
<p>That sounds SO preposterous, and SO different from everything I have ever been told! Am i missing something?</p>
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</p>
<p>I would prefer not. If, for example, there was one box - White/Asian, and the name was hidden from the AdCom, Asians will start to displace Whites. That’s a political minefield. Nothing good can come out of that. There is enough support from conservative Whites to repeal AA. But even liberal Whites do not want to see a 50% Asian class composition, as evinced in this thread.</p>
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</p>
<p>According to the authors and the article you posted, which you claim to be the end-all-be-all on this issue, the result will be that the elites will offer a crappier education.</p>
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</p>
<p>I just have one quality study which I have shared already. Does that mean we have seen the last of you on this thread?</p>
<p>
Yes, how’s that?
I’m fine with that, but guess what - it ain’t going to happen because we come to this accord. You are a social scientist - supposedly of some repute according to yourself, why don’t you look into performing a comprehensive study, at least a review of existing data geared toward proving whatever point it is you wish to prove.</p>
<p>BTW - where did I ask for exact controlled studies? If I did I mispoke (or miswrote). You claimed you formed your opinion based on “peer reviewed” research. You posted one study. I’m asking to see some of that research which is on point as to the question of white vs. Asian admissions, in particular at elite unis. I’m actually interested in reading some of these studies. If you don’t have it, or if that issue doesn’t interest you, then fine. I’ll fade back into the shadows here.</p>
<p>
Yes. Unless somebody mentions my name or quotes one of my posts in an asinine manner.</p>
<p>
The only people “admitting” that use an odd definition of the term “racism”.</p>
<p>
Indeed.</p>
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</p>
<p>Well, I think there is a general American value that treating people differently based on their race is unjust.</p>
<p>If people have already concluded that URMs gain seats by displacing Asians, based solely on their race, then we have already proven that colleges are racist. When I joined, plenty of people were still claiming that there is no such conclusion, or evidence thereof.</p>
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</p>
<p>LOL. My repute is exactly 0. I sold my soul for filthy lucre many moons back.</p>
<p>Just to make the definition of racism clear:</p>
<p>Racism is the belief that there are inherent differences in people’s traits and capacities that are entirely due to their race, however defined, and that, as a consequence, justify the different treatment of those people, both socially and legally. Moreover, racism is the practice of the different treatment of certain a group or groups, which is then justified by recourse to racial stereotyping or pseudo-science.</p>
<p>[Racism</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism]Racism”>Racism - Wikipedia)</p>
<p>“Just to make the definition of racism clear”</p>
<p>I think is the one that got the most votes back on page 1,000,000,000…
(also available on the wikepedia link, right after the one YOU copied…)</p>
<p>"The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as the “belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races” and the expression of such prejudice,[8] </p>
<p>or</p>
<p>while the Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary defines it as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority or inferiority of a particular racial group, and alternatively that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief.[9] </p>
<p>or this one…</p>
<p>The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: “the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others.”</p>
<p>Then we talked about “racialism”…, and I remember saying no one ever tries to makes a case for blacks as superior.</p>
<p>So discrimination based on race is not racism. Got it. Learn something new on the internet every day.</p>
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</p>
<p>What exactly is wrong with this when it is not done is a malicious manner?</p>
<p>Our country has always done this. Women have certain benefits that men do not due to being women. Minorities have certain benefits. Native Americans get benefits none of us get.</p>
<p>We assume that racism in and of itself is inherently wrong. Whoever told you that it was is wrong…</p>
<p>"Learn something new on the internet every day. "</p>
<p>Like what? I’d be curious if you really took in any new information here. </p>
<p>I follow along because I sometimes do.</p>
<p>[15-year-old</a> headed for Harvard - UPI.com](<a href=“15-year-old headed for Harvard - UPI.com”>15-year-old headed for Harvard - UPI.com)</p>
<p>Do the first generation immigrants tend to do better academically including blacks? Based on the mother’s accent, they seem to be immigrants.</p>
<p>Btw - I did pick this story from another newly started thread that says 15 year old got into Harvard.</p>
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</p>
<p>So, if you reject the higher qualified Asian kid, but have no malice in your heart, it is hunky dory?</p>
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</p>
<p>Only if the parents are driven, and the parents may be driven from any race, and any immigration status (or lack thereof). Success of kids is by-and-large determined by parent focus and drive. Even if the kids are adopted.</p>
<p>Shrink-
You know that is one way to see it.
But the other way is to say that when a URM is successful, why not listen to him/her, too?
This Latin BIL MD is “success” (professional, educational, economic), I would assume. Is that not the purpose of social engineering? Maybe the lumping of people into racial groups is not copacetic with all members of URM’s… This is how AA does feel to some URM’s. And just because some member of URM’s have no idea of all this stuff, remember some members of other races or groups do not, as well.
If you start telling me that the BIL must not have been under-priveileged/needed AA or no longer identifies as such, I say, so change the preferences to pure SES.</p>
<p>I am not at ALL against diversity or social engineering. I just think this is the wrong way to go about it, from a practical and philosophical perspective. Race is getting harder to define. Thank God. I hope people stop seeing things as us vs them in terms of race. The human race would benefit from a lot more empathy. Do not build fences; they can be hard to tear down. My kids have benefitd from social engineering, too- as the whole society benefits: they see race and color and cultural and gender and political differences all around them- and they enjoy the diversity, and respect everyone, and really try to see the world from a variety of perspectives. That is an honorable goal of social engineering, too. To me, grouping students by race could destroy that, where we are now. And that wold be very sad. </p>
<p>There is a CC thread going on now started by students about how some of the URM kids wish their URM friends would stop “Blaming the Whites” for all their problems. One kid said, “Stop wasting your time whining and asking for a boost. Go out and show the world that you are great!” This is so GOOD to see. Sure, some people need a boost, and that is not bad, but let’s get away from defining who needs a boost by race.</p>
<p>I did learn from posters on this thread that many feel there are still not “enough” URM’s at our top colleges. Agreed. But why wouldn’t you consider that SES might be more helpful, especially as the races mix, and also to tear down some misconceptions about aptitude that preference can support?</p>
<p>More and more BLack Americans are incredibly successful in many ways, on many dimensions, even if there are still many without hope; there is no reason to be angry. </p>
<p>Do not push me away with arguments. Listen to all the sides. Our goals are the same.</p>