are colleges racist?

[IndianParent]

<p>

Umm yes… When and if Asians need protection and/or artificial help to advance as a people then perhaps things will change.

</p>

<p>Equal treatment is not asking for help. </p>

<p>

You seem to be operating under the impression that America is operating at the individual level. How many Asians are put out due to AA? 1? 10? 100? When the balance of your race is in need of help be assured America will help. Until then, you are own your own…

</p>

<p>Being on their own is fine with Asians. They are doing fine on their own. It’s being held down that is not fine with them.</p>

<p>

The American dream isn’t about equal outcomes but equal chances. Historically URMS haven’t had this and AA was designed to bring URMs back to a level playing field which they are not at. I don’t recall Asians as a whole having this disadvantage in America…

</p>

<p>I don’t recall Asians oppressing Blacks either. So how about this? Whites give up a share of their seats to URMs instead of Asians having to do so?</p>

<p>

In fact… It seems in California where AA is not in effect Asians are overtaking even whites… You think life is unfair now just wait until Asians are outperforming the majority… Then it’s going to get unfair…

</p>

<p>I know. This is precisely why I think stirring up the hornet’s nest that is White entitlement to majority position in college is unwise for Asians.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>

I don’t know whether the end of racial preferences caused the UCs’ problems. Perhaps the Black and Latino voters in CA might not have much incentive to support them anymore, so it could be the reason. Maybe the majority of CA voters don’t see the UCs as an option for their families anymore, so they don’t give a rip about their funding or survival.

</p>

<p>What exactly are the UC’s problems? And why aren’t the UCs an option for “the majority of CA voters”’ families anymore? I would rhetorically and sarcastically ask “Too many Asians?” but then I’d be putting words in your mouth.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

“Talent is 99% hard work and 1% innate ability.”</p>

<p>Sometimes!

</p>

<p>On a very, very rare occasion can talent be achieved without hard work. Success is never achieved without hard work, lottery winners and quota candidates excluded.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>^I see rare occasions all day long. Might be a “special” population, but I’m not sure my population is any rarer than yours.</p>

<p>And yes, there are a disproportionate number of “urm’s” in my “special population” ( for the US, and “Asian” under represented for California until college age) and once again, I will ask if you have a theory about that? I would guess, not enough “tigers” among them? That’s it?</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Why should one believe your lens is the only one that is calibrated correctly?</p>

<p>Colleges have adopted policies to boost the enrollment of underrepresented minorities. Colleges have adopted policies to seek to boost the enrollment of lower SES students. Colleges have NOT stated that the underrepresented minorities should come excusively from lower SES students.</p>

<p>Again, it is not because policies do not satisfy your myopic criteria that they are dysfunctional.

</p>

<p>I think the system is quite dysfunctional as well. Trying to claim that it is not is fine, but would need some additional justification other than that’s-what-the-colleges-want.</p>

[Bay]

<p>

On a very, very rare occasion can talent be achieved without hard work

</p>

<p>Talent cannot be achieved without hard work? Jeez I always thought talent was inborn, and the people who had to work hard were the ones who didn’t have talent.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

I see rare occasions all day long…

</p>

<p>Do you see dead people, too?</p>

[xSlacker]

<p>

Being on their own is fine with Asians. They are doing fine on their own. It’s being held down that is not fine with them.

</p>

<p>Held down by who? The Man??? LOL</p>

<p>

I don’t recall Asians oppressing Blacks either. So how about this? Whites give up a share of their seats to URMs instead of Asians having to do so?

</p>

<p>Well if you want to get technical Asian countries are known for being far more racist than America but that is besides the point. The point is you aren’t underrepresented. As far as AA is concerned you are on the same playing field as whites and I’m pretty sure THEY’VE been giving up seats. Why would you think that you wouldn’t have to???</p>

<p>

I know. This is precisely why I think stirring up the hornet’s nest that is White entitlement to majority position in college is unwise for Asians.

</p>

<p>You think attacking AA or those that actually need it will benefit you? Have you seen the shift in American politics and culture? I do believe even the president is an URM… </p>

<p>Asians are actually in a pretty good position. Probably shouldn’t rock the boat.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

So, the key thing is to attack AA (even though, admittedly, it won’t advance the numbers of seats that you want) because the next step is AA for Whites (if it isn’t already here) and preventing or attacking that directly would be a “political minefield”. Nicely played

</p>

<p>Thank you. But you made one factual error. Removing AA will be enough to get the Asian student proportion to the appropriate level. This is because while there is a huge achievement gap between URMs and Asians (based on median performers), the gap is much lower for Whites, and there are far, far more Whites than Asians. So, statistically, displacing URMs is a certainty, and that has been proven by past experience. Displacing Whites afterward is not so certain.</p>

<p>However, if AA remains AND there is a combined White-Asian category, then statistically speaking there is no way that Asians will not displace Whites. I think I have gone over the numbers before and explained how the two situations play out.</p>

[woeishe]

<p>@Shrink, I’m just saying that many African-Americans aren’t as exposed to major racism as they were 60 years ago. As for different experiences, being black != different experiences. I mean, A rich black kid might have the same experiences as a rich white kid, but a poor asian kid will not have the same experiences.</p>

<p>As for the parent forum, ehh. It’s a mixed bag. I usually frequent it because of the immaturity of some parent’s and I find it funny.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

Well if you want to get technical Asian countries are known for being far more racist than America but that is besides the point. The point is you aren’t underrepresented. As far as AA is concerned you are on the same playing field as whites and I’m pretty sure THEY’VE been giving up seats. Why would you think that you wouldn’t have to???

</p>

<p>Perhaps because no Asian ever oppressed an URM, but Whites did? Why should Asians have to pay for the collective sin of the Whites?</p>

<p>

You think attacking AA or those that actually need it will benefit you? Have you seen the shift in American politics and culture? I do believe even the president is an URM…</p>

<p>Asians are actually in a pretty good position. Probably shouldn’t rock the boat.

</p>

<p>There is a big conservative push to repeal AA. Asians should ride their coattails.</p>

[fabrizio]

<p>Thank you for bringing that to my attention, xiggi. While I disagreed with its conclusion, overall I thought it was remarkably balanced, far more so than many of the posts made here in favor of racial preferences. My comments (surprise, surprise) follow:</p>

<p>

Affirmative action is based on the judgment that a policy of true equal opportunity needs to create opportunities for members of historically underrepresented groups to be drawn into various walks of life from which they might otherwise be shut out.

</p>

<p>I have several problems with the above quote. First, it pretends that affirmative action is about equality of opportunity. But any plain reading of it reveals clearly that Casper was describing equality of OUTCOME. I hate it when people pretend to support equality of opportunity but in reality support equality of outcome; they are purposefully being dishonest. If you really care about equality of opportunity, you WON’T care about the outcomes.</p>

<p>Second, what does “otherwise be shut out” mean, really? Is Casper saying that without racial preferences, Stanford will have no blacks? Does Casper really have such a low opinion of the abilities of our nation’s black youth?</p>

<p>

As we look for the leaders of tomorrow, if all we considered were capacities measurable on a scale, without taking into consideration other aspects of being “deserving and exceptional,” we would be betraying the Founders.
…
However, there is also no room with respect to any applicant for making quantitative, scaleable admissions criteria the sole touchstones of intellectual vitality, talent, character, and promise. That has never been the case at Stanford, and I hope it never will be.

</p>

<p>Despite praising the essay’s balance, Casper still commits the standard fallacy of the pro-racial preference side: assuming that opposing racial preferences means supporting “quantitative, scaleable admissions.” There’s nothing wrong with considering “intellectual vitality, talent, character, and promise.” Go ahead, because racial classification has NOTHING to do with any of those criteria. To assert otherwise is racism, period.</p>

<p>What parts of the essay count as balance to me? Setting aside Casper’s use of the standard fallacy, I praise him for acknowledging that opposition to racial preferences is based on a preference for viewing Americans as individuals instead of as members of groups and recognizing that “Affirmative action makes group membership a salient characteristic of an individual.”</p>

<p>Overall, possibly due to low expectations going in, I was impressed with the essay. It was far, far, far, …, far better than former Harvard President [Neil</a> Rudenstine](<a href=“http://www.diversityweb.org/research_and_trends/political_legal_issues/affirmative_action_policies/why_diverse_important.cfm]Neil”>diversityweb.org)'s mindless drivel.</p>

[xSlacker]

<p>

Perhaps because no Asian ever oppressed an URM, but Whites did? Why should Asians have to pay for the collective sin of the Whites?

</p>

<p>It’s not about oppression or payback. It’s about the fact that as a whole Asians are not in any danger. Asians are succeeding. URMS are as well but not as quickly. </p>

<p>Asians don’t NEED AA. </p>

<p>

There is a big conservative push to repeal AA. Asians should ride their coattails.

</p>

<p>Because conservatives have any power in America. If you truly wanted AA gone you’d be better off enlisting the help of successful or borderline URMs… I recall an election that was recently won by a minority of liberal whites and a majority of URMs. I don’t think Asians have that kind of political clout. Getting caught on the wrong side of the fence when it closes is a bad position to be in…</p>

[Bay]

<p>

Perhaps because no Asian ever oppressed an URM, but Whites did? Why should Asians have to pay for the collective sin of the Whites?

</p>

<p>Obviously you have read none of the case law on this subject.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

I think the system is quite dysfunctional as well. Trying to claim that it is not is fine, but would need some additional justification other than that’s-what-the-colleges-want.

</p>

<p>You cannot label a system as dysfunctional because it fails to accomplish something that was not one of its objectives. That is simply illogical.</p>

<p>Fabrizio relies on the presence of higher SES students among beneficiaries of AA to “claim” that AA is dysfunctional.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>"Equal treatment is not asking for help. "</p>

<p>I didn’t ask for any help. Help came to ME in the form of the military. I hear they “reach out” to URM’s.</p>

<p>"Do you see dead people, too? "</p>

<p>I don’t get it. I’m not gifted that way.</p>

<p>I meant I see at least ten other pieces, besides talent, and perspiration. What did YOU mean?</p>

[xSlacker]

<p>

I didn’t ask for any help. Help came to ME in the form of the military. I hear they “reach out” to URM’s.

</p>

<p>The military, far from being stupid, recognized that they offered a very good path to upward mobility for minorities and minorities jumped on the chance.</p>

<p>In fact, the military DOES target poorer URMs and then, after that “special” attention gives them a chance to prove themselves and the military has been HIGHLY successful at this… </p>

<p>And I bet no whites or asians complain about the URMs taking their seats there.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

It’s not about oppression or payback. It’s about the fact that as a whole Asians are not in any danger. Asians are succeeding. URMS are as well but not as quickly.</p>

<p>Asians don’t NEED AA.

</p>

<p>I don’t think Asians are asking for AA. They are asking for the repeal of AA. Sorry, but we are talking at cross purposes.</p>

<p>You started by saying that AA is a way to make a past right wrong. When I said that Asians didn’t partake in committing that wrong, you immediately switched gears and that it is not a matter of oppression and payback.</p>

<p>Can you please make up your mind?</p>

<p>

Because conservatives have any power in America. If you truly wanted AA gone you’d be better off enlisting the help of successful or borderline URMs… I recall an election that was recently won by a minority of liberal whites and a majority of URMs. I don’t think Asians have that kind of political clout. Getting caught on the wrong side of the fence when it closes is a bad position to be in…

</p>

<p>Can you please stop with the veiled threats? They are really silly.</p>

[IndianParent]

<p>

And I bet no whites or asians complain about the URMs taking their seats there.

</p>

<p>No complaints from me.</p>

[Shrinkrap]

<p>“@Shrink, I’m just saying that many African-Americans aren’t as exposed to major racism as they were 60 years ago. As for different experiences, being black != different experiences. I mean, A rich black kid might have the same experiences as a rich white kid, but a poor asian kid will not have the same experiences.”</p>

<p>Glad you are alright after the “slap down”, but you didn’t answer my question.</p>

<p>“I think you are saying that being black has not effected your experiences as a person.” Yes?</p>

<p>" I think you are saying that being black does not effect the way you see yourself",Yes?</p>

<p>Nor the way others see you (yes?)</p>

<p>And finally, can you speak to how affirmative action affected your upbringing? </p>

<p>and also, would you mind saying something about your environment? Were you a minority, a majority, or what?</p>