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Was this at Harvard? I suspect that the URMs are much more likely to have multiple admissions at top schools (and some will still choose other kinds of schools). There just aren’t that many high-stats URMs, even if the schoold does put a thumb on the scale.</p>
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<p>My feelings aren’t “hurt” that fireandrain believes that there is “the Asian” point of view. I’m simply surprised that he and, it appears, you believe that such a thing exists with respect to racial preferences.</p>
<p>On what basis do you presume that Jerry KANG and Frank WU are outliers? Because of CC? Is CC representative of America? Judging by how vocal the support is for racial preferences here, presuming that CC is representative would have us believe that most Americans support the policy. It’s [just</a> the opposite](<a href=“http://people-press.org/http://people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/312.pdf]just”>http://people-press.org/http://people-press.org/files/legacy-pdf/312.pdf): 62% of Americans surveyed REJECT racial preferences.</p>
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<p>FYI, though siserune has yet to post anything else he has claimed he “will post,” he did quickly show that between [1995</a> and 2001](<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009161.pdf]1995”>http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2009/2009161.pdf), “[n]early half of Asian/Pacific Islander students (47 percent) entered STEM fields, compared to 19–23 percent of students in each of the other racial/ethnic groups. No measurable differences were found among White, Black, and Hispanic students.” I accepted that.</p>
<p>But according to a [UCLA</a> press release](<a href=“http://www.heri.ucla.edu/nih/downloads/2010%20-%20Hurtado,%20Eagan,%20Chang%20-%20Degrees%20of%20Success.pdf]UCLA”>http://www.heri.ucla.edu/nih/downloads/2010%20-%20Hurtado,%20Eagan,%20Chang%20-%20Degrees%20of%20Success.pdf), “34.1% of URM students and 34.3% of White and Asian American students indicated on the 2009 Freshman Survey that they planned to pursue a STEM major.”</p>
<p>I couldn’t find the full report (for free), and it may very well be the case that whites brought the 34.3% figure “down.” But 34.1% is noticeably higher than 19-23%, and I don’t know why the press release would lump whites and Asians together if their STEM participation rates were already quite dissimilar.</p>
<p>Yes, it was Harvard. I was comparing the announcement of admissions vs announcement of final class profile in their newspaper. Shrinkrap posted a chart of admits, yields for several top schools for 2009 for African Americans if I am not mistaken.</p>
<p>I think they actually admitted fewer Asians as a percentage from previous year but the final acceptance numbers were higher as a percentage. They must assume 90% or more yield for Asians, same as International admits.</p>
<p>fabrizio, why would you counter a statistic that clearly shows that Asians choose STEM fields at a tremendously higher rate–*national *statistics from the Department of Education–with an ambiguous statistic? I think it was quite appropriate for you to underline “struggles so mightily,” since you’re still doing it. Why don’t you just admit that this is probably the case? And if it is, what do you think the impact is likely to be at the most selective colleges?</p>
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<p>You should’ve read the press release. The CIRP Freshman Survey is NOT UNIQUE to UCLA. The researchers had an “an analytic sample of 201,588 students across 326 four-year, non-profit colleges and universities.” To be fair, the survey was administered in 2004, and the students were tracked through 2009. Regardless, the data went past the 1995-2001 period.</p>
<p>Again, on what basis do you presume that Jerry KANG and Frank WU are outliers? Because of CC?</p>
<p>As someone who is absolutely against race being used for admission I do not believe admission should just be based on test scores and academic achievement like some seem to be arguing. Factors such as involvement in the arts and sports, community service, and importantly leadership should play important factors. My impression is that this sort of holistic approach has been diminshed in recent years in favor of the desire to have an interesting and diverse student body.</p>
<p>Maybe Jerry Kang and Frank Wu are older than the posters on CC, and they have a better understanding of the need for race-based affirmative action based on a historical perspective. But since I don’t really know (or care) who they are, it’s hard to say. Again, would it assuage your feelings if I admit that the “Asian view” we’re discussing is just one that is typically and repeatedly expressed by Asian kids on CC, and may not be shared by Vietnamese fishermen in Texas?</p>
<p>Yes, I see that the UCLA report is also based on national stats (which I saw, before I saw your post–and I edited my post). But it’s still an ambiguous statistic–they are primarily comparing URMs to non-URMs, and they combined that statistic (aspiration to STEM majors) for whites and Asians, and not others. Why? Maybe they didn’t want to highlight the disparity.</p>
<p>And I just have to add–you keep on struggling against this simple idea, that Asian kids disproportionately choose STEM fields, even in the face of plenty of evidence, as well as the common understanding of just about everybody–but you want others to accept and act on your impression that Asians are being discriminated against, based on (in my opinion) much weaker evidence. That seems a bit odd to me.</p>
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When I hear stories like this, I always wonder if these kids realize that sometimes what a kid does outside school may be far more impressive than their school activities. My older son won his share of Science Olympiad medals, but really the true measure of his intellect were the projects he was working on that the school (and most of his friends) knew nothing about.</p>
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So admissions to an academic institution should be based on factors besides academic achievement? Right.</p>
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Go join the boy scouts.</p>
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Actually, this is a fine example of something that a student may do that others in his school may know nothing about (especially since it may be a little uncool). But being an Eagle Scout with a lot of leadership experience and community service may make a difference at some colleges. Some kids also do a lot through churches or other community organizations, or through club sports outside the school. They may win music or writing prizes that many in the school don’t know about.</p>
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<p>I’m not nitpicking here; I have serious issues with the lines of thought you’re expressing here. I can agree to disagree with fireandrain (and you) on racial preferences, equality of opportunity/outcome, and so forth. I cannot do that for this so-called “the Asian” point of view.</p>
<p>My feelings are not “hurt” by the phrase. Rather, I’m perplexed, dumbfounded even, that he and you honestly believe it exists with respect to this issue. Googling “Asians for Affirmative Action” (no quotation marks) reveals that [url=<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/affirm062198.htm]61%[/url”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/affirm/stories/affirm062198.htm]61%[/url</a>] of California’s Asian Americans voted against Proposition 209. How do you explain that?</p>
<p>Oh, kids don’t vote, which brings us to my second point of disagreement. Do you believe that opposing racial preferences is a “phase” that we “grow out of”? (If you’re wondering where I got that from your post, note that you correctly guessed that KANG and WU are not in the 18-22 demographic.)</p>
<p>fabrizio, do you understand what a “generalization” is? Do you deny that there have been scads of Asian kids here on cc complaining about AA for URMs? Perhaps that isn’t the view of Asians nationwide–but it seems to be a pretty common view among the high-achieving Asian kids who tend to post here. And I certainly do hope that opposing racial preferences for URMs is a phase that you and others will grow out of. As I’ve said before, I think that opposition is a kind of misguided idealism that is related to a lack of broad understanding of the history of race in this country. It’s not too surprising that people who are recent immigrants might have this viewpoint, since they may not have the personal or family history to help them understand about race in this country. (Which may explain why Asians in California might be more understanding, since more of them come from families who have been in this country for generations.) It’s also a characteristic of the young that they tend to think that their opinions have nothing to do with their membership in any group, but are theirs alone. That’s something that more experience will teach you about as well.</p>
<p>Sorry to be blunt about this, but this is the Parents Forum.</p>
<p>Bovertine accused me of accusing Karabel of lying. Here is my actual post:</p>
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<p>My point is that there is a real reluctance to publicly criticize AA because to do so is to put oneself at risk for being labeled racist. The study was done. The results were not conclusive but did raise questions. Yet the author goes on record as supporting AA. I don’t see this as lying, I see this as a researcher doing some spin to keep future funding and publishing opportunities in an era where the prevailing liberal orthodoxy would very much frown on potential studies yielding more decisive findings that did not support AA.</p>
<p>Also, you can put me down as one who is very bothered by the “Asian View” and “typical science/math violin-playing Asian drone” comments that I see routinely on CC and elsewhere. I truly believe this will be judged very harshly thru the lens of history and that many who are so vociferous in their defense of race preferences in admissions will find themselves cast in avery non-heroic light down the road.</p>
<p>The irony is that doggedly, rigidly defending a policy that once made sense but now does not is a very illiberal attitude. I keep expecting a documentary like “Waiting for Superman” on this issue.Who would have thought a documentary criticizing Teachers and Public Education of all sacred things could be so influential?</p>
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<p>Given that I so rarely see you “generalize” about “URM” “behaviors,” yes, I do understand what it is.</p>
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<p>You answered your own question. I don’t deny it, but so what? As I said earlier, if CC were representative, most people here would be AGAINST racial preferences, nto for them.</p>
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<p>This shows your lack of respect for your ideological opponents, and to be fair, this mentality is not unique to you. How can we have a discussion when you have a paternalist mindset of “fabrizio, one day you’ll see it my way. One day…”?</p>
<p>I doubt you feel the same way about other issues.</p>
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I’ve felt that way about many issues, when I thought that more age and experience would better inform the other person’s opinions.</p>
<p>As for generalizing about URMs, I remember a discussion in which I noted that black people, in fact, do seem to like to eat watermelon. And I have to add that I get tired of how often Thomas Sowell is dragged out to represent the idea that black people don’t necessarily support affirmative action. (I don’t recall who it was who did that in this particular thread.)</p>
<p>And one more thing: fabrizio, I take note of which parts of my posts you respond to, and those which you continue to ignore.</p>
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Except on this thread, where critics of AA label its supporters as racist.</p>
<p>How old are you, Hunt? I feel pretty old, and I think that AA is a travesty that future generations will use to reassure themselves that they are better than we were… and rightly so.</p>
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By definition, how are supporters of AA not racist?</p>
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<p>No it does not. Or at least, I don’t believe that.</p>
<p>Individuals are shaped by their parents, their neighborhoods, their cultures. Within a group, there are individuals who have different points of view. But in general, many individuals in a group will have a similar viewpoint of the world. </p>
<p>So, yes, I believe there is an Asian point of view, a Jewish point of view, a Baptist point of view. Are there individual Asians, Jews and Baptists who think differently? – absolutely yes. There is a phrase among Jews, that whenever anything happens anywhere, we ask “Is it good for the Jews?” Do all Jews ask this? No. But a heck of a lot do. And implied in that question is the idea that there is a Jewish point of view – despite the fact that Jews will argue and disagree with each other until their deathbed about everything. </p>
<p>When my daughter was in high school, we lived in a place where there are no Asians. Well, except for the one family who ran the Chinese restaurant, but they didn’t have children. I discovered CC in her sophomore year of HS. I used to come to the dinner table regularly and describe what I was reading here as expressed by the high-achieving Asians and their “tiger” parents. This viewpoint of the college application process and ths style of parenting was foreign to me, and very different from the culture and viewpoint of people I knew. When my daughter went to college, she came home and said that she met a lot of Asians, and heard from them the same perspective that I had read on CC. </p>
<p>Why is it so troubling to you that there is an Asian point of view, (or a Jewish point of view or a Baptist point of view)? It is not a bad thing. It can become a bad thing, if it is turned into a stereotype. It can be a bad thing when it leads to prejudice. </p>
<p>And when I say there is an “Asian point of view,” that doesn’t mean that when I meet an Asian for the first time I assume that this is what they believe. I meet them as an individual and learn over time what their beliefs are. I can act like this, and still believe that there is a Asian point of view. They can co-exist.</p>
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My answer to this oft-repeated question is in Post #102. Check it out.</p>
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When I first met my future wife, she was a pre-med in college. Her mother was a doctor, her grandfather was a doctor, her sister was already in medical school, her first cousin was also a pre-med, several of her uncles and cousins were also doctors. But she was offended when I suggested that her family had *anything *to do with the fact that she was a pre-med–this was her own decision, based on her own interests.</p>