<p>People tell me that CSUs are bad because they are not prestigious
what would be the difference between a UC degree and a state degree?</p>
<p>There are 23 different campuses in the California State University (CSU) system and there is significant variation in the quality of education one might receive between the different campuses. It is true that in general CSUs lack the prestige of the UCs and many private colleges and universities but it is not always the case. Cal Poly SLO is a CSU and it is at least as highly regarded as any UC with the possible exceptions of Berkeley and UCLA. However, the CSUs also include universities like CSU Dominguez Hills which has appallingly low admission standards and a graduation rate of only 32%.</p>
<p>When the State of California set up its Master Plan for Higher Education it deliberately set up a system that would have two very unequal types of universities the UCs and the CSUs and set very restrictive conditions under which the CSUs could operate. The UCs were to receive the overwhelming share of resources allocated to higher education and were charged with being elite research universities that would prepare students for further study graduate school and professional schools such as schools of law, medicine and business. The UCs were lavishly funded and were the only public universities where research was to be done and advanced degrees conferred.</p>
<p>The CSUs were conceived to be schools that would be able to offer bachelor’s degrees in certain fields to nearly all California high school graduates at minimal expense to the state. It was assumed that CSU graduates with BS or BA degrees would not engage in further schooling and would directly enter the work force where a bachelor’s degree was the only qualification needed. The CSUs could not offer advanced degrees when the plan was established in 1960. Some CSUs are now permitted to offer Masters degrees in a small number of disciplines but still can not grant PhDs. This is very different from neighboring states; Both the University of Oregon and Oregon State University have equal standing and both can offer all degrees. The same is true in Arizona where there is really no difference in the status of the University of Arizona and Arizona State University.</p>
<p>The result is that when a high school student enrolls in a CSU they have been deemed to have chosen a very different type of education than that offered by the UCs and have tacitly accepted limits on their future educational and career aspirations. This why many students choose to attend California Community Colleges (CCCs) rather than CSUs when the graduate from high school and are not accepted as Freshmen at a UC. Going to a CCC offers a second chance at going to a UC as a transfer while going to a CSU would put you in the lowest caste of California’s educational system. Once in a CSU it is nearly impossible to get out. While UCs welcome transfers from CCCs and even out of state four year colleges, they reject all but a handful of CSU students who attempt to transfer from a CSU to a UC. Since CSUs are considered to be “teaching” rather than “research” universities, graduates of CSUs have a difficult time getting into graduate schools and have almost no chance of being accepted at a medical school, highly ranked law school or leading MBA program. The state justifies this caste system by saying it is the only way to offer an opportunity for a four year degree to all Californians at a cost the state can afford.</p>
<p>The result is that the quality of the students going to CSUs is considerably lower than those who enter UCs. With exception of a few schools like Cal Poly SLO and SDSU the SAT scores of students attending CSUs tend to be much lower than those accepted at UCs. There is considerable overlap in SAT scores only between the top two or three CSUs and UC Merced and UC Riverside. The gap in SAT scores between schools like UC Berkeley and CSU Dominguez Hills is enormous with essentially no overlap. My elder son who actually had SAT scores in the high 600s is a sophomore majoring in Geology at CSU Sacramento because he did not apply himself in high school and ended up with a GPA of only 3.0 so he was not competitive for admission to a UC but did not want to go to a CCC. My younger son who is a high school senior had SAT scores in the 700s but also failed to take high school seriously and also has a 3.0 GPA and will likely be going to CSU Sacramento as well as a Physics major. While their low high school GPAs are typical of CSU students their SAT scores are not. The average combined math and critical reading SAT scores of students at CSU Sacramento, which is a pretty typical CSU, is less than 1,000 which is below the average of all students who take the SATs. It is therefore no big surprise that fewer than half the students who enroll at CSU Sacramento ever receive a bachelor’s degree.</p>
<p>The CSUs generally use the same text books as the UCs and the low graduation rate for nearly all CSUs would seem to indicate that a certain amount of academic rigor is enforced. The problem is that there are probably a large number of students at CSUs who should not really be in college in the first place. This drains scarce resources away from the CSU students who could actually profit from a college education. Because o of the budget crisis the CSU are being forced to cut enrollment by at least 40,000 students over the next two years. While many consider this a negative development it might actually improve the status of the CSUs in the long run. A number of the CSUs have already instituted higher admission standards for both freshmen and transfer students and are rejecting large numbers of applicants that they would have accepted in previous years. While this is no doubt painful for those who are not admitted, if it results in higher quality student bodies at the CSUs, the status of the CSUs should rise. If the CSUs become known for having students who are more comparable to the UC students in terms of ability and potential it could be the first step in improving the prospects for graduates of CSUs and the widespread perception that the CSUs are bad schools might diminish.</p>
<p>So if I have a 3.92 GPA and a 1440 SAT score is it possible to get accepted into a UC?
(I participate in many extra-curricular activites, 1st generation, latino/hispanic, take many AP classes, and I will take the SAT II this november)</p>
<p>My top priority is UC Santa Cruz and my last resort is San Jose state.
If I don’t get into UC Santa Cruz or any other UC should I go to San Jose State or CCC?
(Major:Computer Engineering)</p>
<p>Is the 1440 the total Math plus Critical reading or does it also include the writing score as well. If it does include the writing score what were your individual scores in math and critical reading?</p>
<p>If the 1440 is the total math+CR+ writing getting into UCSC is going to be awful difficult since the average for admitted students is at least 250 points higher than that. With your high GPA and good ECs UC Merced is a possibility but all other UCs are going to be real reaches.</p>
<p>As for San Jose State, it is after Cal Poly SLO, probably the top CSU for engineering. If you live in the San Jose State service area you have a fairly good chance of acceptance there. However, If you are applying from outside SJSU’s service area, unless your Math + Critical Reading score on the SAT is at least 1200 your chances are poor. CSUs go strictly by the numbers and service area when evaluating an application. If you are in their service area you get a boost in your chances. If you have a high GPA that also gives you a strong boost. However, if your M+CR SAT scores are low it really hurts your chances. Unlike UCs, CSUs do not look at essays, do care about your ethnicity, status as a 1st generation applicant, ECs, AP courses or SAT II scores. They just enter your service area, GPA and SAT I scores for CR and Math into the computer and it decides whether you are accepted or rejected.</p>
<p>510 writing
480 Math
450 critical reading</p>
<p>I also have a 20 on the ACT</p>
<p>ENG-21
MATH-20
READING-17
SCIENCE-23</p>
<p>I am in the top 10% of my class
36/380</p>
<p>I also received an email from University of the Pacific receiving top prospect status
would it be better than a CSU</p>
<p>I live in the Sacramento area, in Woodland, its near Davis.</p>
<p>BTW thanks so much for your advice</p>
<p>Whether you apply to a UC or a CSU your SAT scores are not going to help you. While both are reaches, I actually think you have better chance at UCSC than at SJSU. CSUs use only the total of your SAT CR and Math scores which for you would be a 930. That is well below what an applicant from outside the SJSU service area would need to receive serious consideration for their engineering program.</p>
<p>Unlike CSUs which go strictly by the numbers, your application for admission to the UCs includes an essay where you could explain more about your background which the UCs will take into consideration. They will also consider your ECs which would boost your chances. Perhaps most importantly, they put more weight on your GPA and class rank than the CSUs will which would be to your benefit. </p>
<p>It sounds like you live in the Sacramento State University service area so even though your SAT scores are a little low, your GPA would probably make you a strong candidate for acceptance at Sac State.</p>
<p>I do not know much about the University of the Pacific except that it is in Stockton, is a private university and very expensive.</p>
<p>“CSU Dominguez Hills which has appallingly low admission standards and a graduation rate of only 32%.”</p>
<p>But a great men’s soccer program!</p>
<p>Lemaitre1; I am curious about your sons’ experience at Sac State. My son has a similar profile (but SAT’s in the lower to mid 600’s), is interested in physics and engineering, and we live in Solano county. Sac State, Sonoma, and Maritime consider us in their local area.</p>
<p><a href=“http://ciac.csusb.edu/ciac/docs/AA-2010-20_LocalAdmission-ServiceAreas.pdf[/url]”>http://ciac.csusb.edu/ciac/docs/AA-2010-20_LocalAdmission-ServiceAreas.pdf</a></p>
<p>Is there some source for the number of “points” needed last year, for kids admitted to SDSU or San Jose from outside the service area?</p>
<p>University of the Pacific’s average CR+M was 1200 last year, so you are about 270 points below that average. It wouldn’t be impossible, but you would have to consider it a reach. <a href=“http://web.pacific.edu/x15176.xml[/url]”>http://web.pacific.edu/x15176.xml</a></p>
<p>As Lemaitre1 mentiones, it is a private university costing about $45,000/year. It is a beautiful university (the university scenes in *Raiders of the Lost Arc *were filmed there) and has fairly small classes with a supportive faculty. They offer to match Cal Grants for California residents who qualify (Cal Grant = $9,708, so a total grant of $19,416), but I do not know what will happen to that program if Cal Grants are eliminated for private universities (I have no info that this will happen, it is just one of the many California-budget-crisis-related rumors).</p>
<p>I would say that in most cases a CSU at less than $20,000/year (and far less if you can commute) would be a better choice than UOP unless you received significant financial aid.</p>
<p>Good luck!</p>
<p>I just got in the mail today a Top prospect application from Westminster in Salt Lake city
would you say that would be better than a csu?</p>
<p>also if I was born in San Jose would that help?
(for applying to sjsu)</p>
<p>I would say that the CSUs are very good schools where you can get a very good education. </p>
<p>No, I would not say that random universities that you know nothing about that happen to send you mail and that cost twice as much as a CSU are better than a California State University. </p>
<p>No, being born in San Jose is not an advantage at SJSU. Your service area advantage is generally at the CSU nearest your home address, though some CSUs do not offer that advantage.</p>
<p>And finally, I do not agree *at all *with the post that says receiving a degree from a California State University would “limit” your future educational and vocational goals - if fact, as a CSU graduate who has gone on to graduate school (at a selective private university on a fellowship - GASP!) and who has managed a succesful career, I would say that is utter nonsense.</p>
<p>I second alame’s notion. My friend SC, who graduated from CSU Hayward (Now East Bay), a lower ranking CSU. Now works in a management position in a major corporation. He just completely renovated a large home in the most exclusive neighborhood in San Mateo, while holding on to two other houses as investments. It just depends on the individual, success does not always correlated with schooling.</p>
<p>so the main point is
there is nothing wrong with getting a degree at Sac State?</p>
<p>…there is significant variation in the quality of education one might receive between the different campuses…</p>
<p>So explore the various campuses.</p>
<p><a href=“Cal State Apply | CSU”>Cal State Apply | CSU;
<p>
There is so much misinformation in that post, I cannot address it all, but I really have to respond to this. The CSUs have for decades offered hundreds of graduate degree programs in hundreds of different areas. Here is a list of more than 280 possible areas in which postgraduate students may receive their graduate degree from the 23 campuses of the California State University system. <a href=“http://www.calstate.edu/gradprograms/documents/majors-matrix-graduate.pdf[/url]”>http://www.calstate.edu/gradprograms/documents/majors-matrix-graduate.pdf</a> The majority of the programs are offered at more than one campus.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap,
My elder son had a few problems adjusting to Sac State his freshman year. It took him a while to learn that he couldn’t just slide by in college like he did in high school and finally started to study seriously. He has become much more diligent as a sophomore than he was a year ago as a freshman. Since he is a Geology major he has to take basically the same pre-requisite courses as engineering majors; three semesters of calculus, three semesters of calculus based physics and two semesters of chemistry. Sac State uses the same textbook for Calculus that UC Berkeley uses and nearly all the other students taking Math 30, Math 31 and Math 32 are engineering majors so he is finding that he really has to work hard in Calculus to get good grades. He is finding his Geology courses pretty easy and his Speech and Spanish classes rediculously easy.</p>
<p>Sac State offers a masters degree program in Geology and with the possible exception of SDSU probably has the best Geology department among the CSUs. He sometimes said that he wishes he had studied in high school and gone to a UC but overall is satisfied with the education he is getting at Sac State.</p>
<p>I am more concerned about my younger son who is a high school senior and wants to major in Physics. He also did not take his first three years of high school seriously and ended his junior year with a GPA of 3.05. The plan had been to send him to Sac State as well but I am starting to have severe reservations about that. Sac State’s Physics department does not appear to be well regareded even among the CSUs and it does not even offer a masters program. My younger son got a 720 in math on the SAT so I am considering having him apply to UCSC and UCR which are lower tier UCs but have excellent Physics departments. I realize that his GPA is not competitive even for the lower tier UCs but am hoping that the Physics departments at those schools might argue to the Admissions departments that “we do not get many applicants who want to major in Physics to begin with and certainly do not get many that can score over 700 on the math SAT so let’s give him a chance.” My son is taking AP Physics now, the only AP course he has taken, and he really seems excited about what he is learning in it which is a change from any of the other courses he has taken in high school.</p>
<p>^Thank you! Any insights about Sonoma State or Monterey?</p>
<p>Lemaitre1, I just cannot agree with your post regarding the caliber of CSU students and their outcome. The CSU system offers a great higher education system, arguments can be made for specific campuses but as a whole those students who dedicate themselves to obtaining an education via the CSU system should be supported.<br>
My experience is, great careers await those who graduate from CSU’s. The degree, effort and networking opportunities all are important factors and all CSU students have a great chance of achieving success.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap,</p>
<p>I really do not know anything about CSU Sonoma or CSU Monterrey. When my son applied to colleges, besides Cal State he also applied to CSU Fresno, SJSU and Cal Poly SLO and we visited SJSU as well as Sac State. Besides Cal State he was also accepted at Fresno but recieved letters from SJSU and Cal Poly SLO that they were only accepting applicants from their service areas unless they had truly outstanding credentials which other than fairly high SAT scores my elder son did not have.</p>
<p>I have a 3.67 plus more after this semester GPA and only applied to CSU’s as opposed to UC because UC does not offer major I want to study…</p>
<p>Do you think it was a bad choice for me to apply only to SDSU, Cal Poly SLO, and SJSU for BA/finance or should i have applied to UC and do some economics major?</p>
<p>I don’t have an answer to your question, but unless one of those is in your service area, it’s probably a good idea to apply elsehwere too. Not too late!</p>