<p>I hate group projects! Always have; always will. They are a lazy teacher’s way of grading less work on a given subject.</p>
<p>This isn’t on-the-job training. This is work done for a GRADE. I guess I’ve always preferred that my grades (and that of my teenagers) be dependent upon MY (or their) efforts and not on the work or non-work of someone else.</p>
<p>My personal experience is that those who slack on projects in “real life” at work usually get discovered sooner or later (usually sooner) and thankfully don’t last long in many companies.</p>
<p>Group projects are important in school because they teach you how to work with others. If you’re working in a group and you find out in the last minute that one of your teammates hasn’t done his share, then you’re not really working in a group. Having group meetings or scheduling some time to work together, other than meeting in the last minute, would probably solve this problem.</p>
<p>Too many group projects from h*** persuaded my D not to accept an elite honors program (Gemstone) at University of Maryland—it’s basically a group project that spans 4 years. It sounds like an outstanding opportunity, very frequently the results are published, so it’s a great experience all around. One would think that the participation level would be high from all group members, given the caliber of the students they select. However, D has been engaged in too many group dramatics due to personalities involved, over the high school years, that she couldn’t imagine committing to a 4-year-group project. I went through all the arguments that it will more likely mimic the “real world” than some of the doozies she’s been involved with in high school, but I couldn’t sway her opinion. All her arguments are valid–she wants a double major and study abroad at least one semester…so, I have to agree that it’s best for her.</p>
<p>Let me clarify–by workforce training, I mean learning “work procedures” as opposed to the knowledge and developed thinking necessary to carry out the work. Things like how to work in a group, rather than understanding the principles and body of knowledge that the particular discipline is based on, are not what I send my kids to school for. I taught them to be civil, respectful people–they don’t need to learn cheesy business-speak dynamics in order to succeed (and if they do–the place that expects that is probably not a place they’d want to work.)</p>
<p>Count me among those who hate group projects. I am too much of a control freak. I do see their value in teaching communication, group planning, sharing a load, etc. The best group projects I’ve seen with my kids, or have experienced myself, involved a lot of classroom time spent on it, with a lot of teacher interaction. Trying to get kids together outside of class is a logistical nightmare. My D did her calc project with a Muslim (I think) girl who had church on Saturday, so she always wanted to work on Sundays, and we had church on Sundays, but always had to give in because she wouldn’t. During the week, their activities seemed to be on opposite nights. It was silly. My D regretted doing it together (they had an option to work alone, but D thought it would be better to have someone else helping.)</p>
<p>On the other hand, for her Lit project, the teacher met with them at checkpoints along the way (once at Starbucks, for instance) to discuss progress and, I suspect, get a feel for how the group was working together.</p>
<p>In the workplace, I’ve had the opposite problem with group projects – getting railroaded by the pushy women or arrogant men who have much trouble listening to any idea other than their own.</p>
<p>I do agree, though, that whatever they’re trying to teach with group projects, it’s not usually successful at doing much other than frustrating everyone involved.</p>
<p>My kids have found that group projects work well when the participants get to choose their partners/teams. They choose others with similar work ethics and actually enjoy it. Some of the projects my son has done with friends - films, skits and presentations- in high school were wonderful experiences.</p>
<p>On the other hand, if they are assigned team members, it’s a headache. It seems that the teachers intentionally put concientious kids with those not as committed , to “balance the group.” Naturally, the work falls to the ones who care.
This is when it becomes unfair, and rather unproductive, imo.</p>
<p>Ugh…group projects are tough. I had a lot of them in my MBA program (where it is appropriate to have them).</p>
<p>What I found is that you have to identify and appoint a leader/“project manager” for every group project. THAT person needs to watch the schedule and make sure everyone is doing their part…nagging and reassigning if someone isn’t keeping up. The one who volunteers for that role isn’t necessarily always the best choice ;), but they might put up a fight. </p>
<p>My approach was generally to be the “writer” or editor, the one who wrote and/or edited the actual final paper or report. That kind of makes you the defacto leader/organizer whether others acknowledge that role or not. That way I could collect everyone’s pieces and look for holes. If someone came up short (either didn’t do it at all or the quality was poor), I’d do that part myself. Yeah, not fair, doing more than my share of work, but that way I had more control over what the final grade would be and wasn’t caught short with missing pieces the day it was due. Sometimes you get great group members who really do make the whole greater than the sum of it’s parts…sometimes you end up having to do all the work yourself while others’ get to take credit.</p>
<p>One of the problems with group projects is that a most of the time the students don’t get to pick their group mates, because teachers don’t want everyone going with their friends. </p>
<p>Another problem with group projects, especially ones that are intended to teach the class, is that when a group doesn’t do their job the whole class suffers-- the teacher often won’t go back and reteach the material, yet still gives a test as rigorous as for all the other chapters. So the students not only have to hold up their own ends in their groups, but have to go back and teach themselves all the material that the other groups failed to present adequately.</p>
<p>I’ve only had two Bs on my final report card since whenever it was they started grading us in elementary school. One was because of a group project where the other members of my group failed to hold their ends up-- and the extra stuff I did didn’t make up for it. There’ve been plenty of other times where I’ve had to overcompensate in a group, but luckily it’s worked every other time.</p>
<p>EDIT: A.S.A.P., we cross-posted. I definitely agree about balancing the groups, too.</p>
<p>It seems like there should be a better way to teach cooperative working skills-- ie, in a non-graded environment.</p>
<p>I’ve only seen one stellar group project - my younger son’s 7th grade English teacher divided the class up into teams to write and publish magazines. She had them look at magazines first to see how they were put together. Then every kid had to apply for positions at the magazines (editor in chief, art director, staff writer etc.) They learned how to write resumes for this. She put together “staffs” for several magazines per class. The kids then decided on the theme of each magazine. Each kid had to write at least two pieces for the magazine. If kids weren’t doing their share, she fired them and gave them boring English assignments instead. (I think two kids got dismissed in my son’s class.) At least three quarters of the work was done in class so she had a pretty good picture of who was carrying their weight. She got a grant to get the magazines published so they looked pretty professional at the end of the day. I wish every project could be so well thought out.</p>
<p>"THAT person needs to watch the schedule and make sure everyone is doing their part…nagging and reassigning if someone isn’t keeping up. The one who volunteers for that role isn’t necessarily always the best choice , but they might put up a fight.
Yeah, the kid who volunteered to project manage for my son’s team did NOT do well in this case. Your suggestion on volunteering to be a writer/editor are good - I’ll pass this on to my son. One thing I did tell him: NEVER allow a project to be submitted without seeing the final result - well ahead of the deadline.
In my work, I give writing deadlines to people all the time - with a good cushion. If they don’t submit - I just go ahead and write the pieces myself. No big deal…and no last minute scrambling and sub-standard products.<br>
Even with all the flaws, I think these projects help kids learn how to operate in groups. I just have trouble with linking it to a grade.</p>
<p>If the project is over and turned in, I don’t see how he can do much besides count it toward life experience. </p>
<p>I think group projects teach us about the world of work (and society) - what would he have done if one memeber of a CODE team at the hospital didn’t show up for a CODE? (the other memeber fill in and do that job to the best of their ability so the patient doesn’t die). What would he have done if one member of a marketing team didn’t produce the power point he was supposed to for the big meeting with the multi-million dollar customer? (the other members would have known prior to the meeting that this important part was missing and they would have created it so they would be prepared anyway). </p>
<p>So, one could argue that the point of these group projects is learning how to work with others and also learning how to problem solve. Maybe his group didn’t problem solve so well, thus the bad grade? Speculation, that’s all - nothing more.</p>
<p>Pearl - the bad grade was given because two questions (out of 8) were submitted with incomplete (and incorrect) answers. No credit was given on this section. This was not a complicated project - the prof recommended that each member of the group take a few of the questions, come together to review and then submit. The “come together to review” part never happened because one kid submitted his answers two hours before the deadline (after promising numerous times to get them in earlier). The project manager rushed to pull everything together and submit - and only the project manager saw the final product before it was submitted. So yes, a breakdown. Giving a failing grade to all the kids seems pretty severe though.
I like the idea of “peer review” sheets or reporting on the roles when the project is submitted. My son has contacted the prof and it seems he’s willing to listen to who did what on this and consider it. And he did admit to the prof that he has learned that he needs to take charge in the future - and that just doing his part was not good enough. We’ll see. Right now, were looking at a 100 and high 90s grade on two exams and then this one failing grade.</p>
<p>(Edit: responding to Pearl. Crossposted with Toneranger.)</p>
<p>I think the point is not that the group project suffered, but that all the students were punished. It would be like one person not showing up for the Code, and the ones who did show up get in trouble. That kind of group punishment happens in the real world, but it still doesn’t make it fair or right, and I see no reason to start early, just because it will probably happen later.</p>
<p>Actually, in the real world, the one who does most of the work and bails everyone else out usually gets noticed (eventually) and promoted. Punishing, or failing, equally is not very representative of what happens in the workplace.</p>
<p>I concur with ASAP.
Teachers who assign group projects miss this important concept. Is it because of their own work environment (unions, cooperative teaching, seniority based raises)? Although the “real world” does run on group work, the individuals that shoulder the load end up usually coming out on top for crying out loud. Either that or they quit the company and go out and get another job, or form their own company!</p>
<p>I found a group of two usually works very well, 3 sometimes, once you get to four or five, there always seems to be a slacker or two to deal with. I never cared much for group projects, but I did have some that worked well. It was primarily because the team members generally had similar degrees of work ethic, and class performance levels. </p>
<p>Get 3 people in a group that are “A” students, and always attend class with another that tends toward bare bones minimum work, and you have a recipe for…well…the 3 doing the work while lazy one goes along for the ride. </p>
<p>Peer review can assist with this, but honestly, who wants to narc out on the poor performer…That probably shows more about your character than anything else. </p>
<p>Typically Profs. know who is doing the work in the group, and who is sliding by. If they don’t then thay aren’t very astute to begin with.</p>
<p>“Typically Profs. know who is doing the work in the group, and who is sliding by. If they don’t then they aren’t very astute to begin with”.
Not in a big lecture hall…that’s why my son hates this. He doesn’t really know the professor. So you don’t think the group should point out who didn’t do the work?? Even if it caused a failing grade for the whole group?</p>
<p>Hang on a sec. A 100, a high 90’s and this one project. Are these grades within the same course or for two other courses that he is taking? </p>
<p>If the former, assuming that the other six project questions were answered pretty well, that should have translated to something between a 60 and a 70 on the project grade. (And if the other six were not answered pretty well, then the whole team failed, not just the one slacker.) That averages out to between an 85 and an 87 by my calculations, assuming the tests and project have equal weight. Please correct me if I am wrong (project carried more weight, brutal grading curve, etc…) but it looks like we are talking about the difference between an A and a B in the final grade for this one course. If that is the case, the difference will amount to a reduction of about 0.02 on the GPA over a college career. Is that worth so much fuss?</p>
<p>If I misunderstood the previous post and he is getting A+ in two other courses and failing this one course solely because of the blown project, then I would say you have something to complain about.</p>