We were out with friends last night who were pleased to report that one of their kids is a late bloomer but seems to be turning things around and seems to be on track to be “successful” (which by a generic definition is self sufficient or better) . Their other child will hopefully be self sufficient, but at a very different level. So, was just musing, how do we define “success”? Certainly we must consider the different choices our kids make to their definition of “success”, but is this age old adage still around? Certainly in the general population, with more first generation students getting college degrees, but was wondering in our small, skewed microcosm on cc, where many of the parent posters are financially successful, is this belief still around? Are our kids still for the most part going to be able to be more financially successful than their parents?
“More” financially successful? That never was an expectation at our house.
Our expectation was that our kids would be self supporting. Honestly…didn’t matter to us how, or at what income level or whatever.
It’s unlikely that our kids will be as financial successfully as us unless they marry someone who makes a lot of money! One ill kid and two others who aren’t interested in high-income careers. That’s fine with us, as long as they’re happy (I can’t even say, “and productive” when it comes to Ill Kid, and that’s also OK).
(I won’t lie that it was easy to get to this point. When they were younger, I thought they would all do better than we have.)
Among middle class and upper middle class families, I think stagnant or downward mobility is likely for most due to structural changes in the economy
We used to jokingly say we hoped our kids would be financially comfortable and take care of us in our old age. But was said jokingly though— as for the second, hopefully if we need help they’ll do as we did for our parents. Hopefully we were good role models.
Haven’t the faintest idea what this means, do you have an economic study that discusses it?
Other than that, I concur with thumper.
It depends on the family.
My best friend is considered a failure by his father, an engineer. He is a teacher and will never be as well off as his parents, which to his dad is a failure. Worth noting that his mom is a teacher…
I’m already more financially well-off than my parents, but that’s not our measure of success. We measure by happiness and in that category, I’m successful.
My FIL told me several weeks ago that he considers himself a failure as a parent because his kids politics are different than his… but that’s a whole other story.
Where I grew up in factoryland, we knew that we’d likely never be as successful as our parents and they weren’t as successful as their parents. Union jobs, factory jobs, etc that were secure and well paying were gone by the time we were born.
In the middle/ upper middle class neighborhood I’ve lived in since high school, there was an expectation that kids would do better. But parents didn’t keep up with the cost of college and while they were able to work through school, we’re saddled with massive debt. Our earnings are nowhere near our parents’ for the same entry level jobs they had 25+years ago.
My friend and I talked about the idealized vs the realistic issues. Of course we want our kids to be happy. And self sufficient. One of her kids made some bad decisions and lost a decent job that, while not necessarily well paying, was stable and provided benefits. So this child derailed her employment path, and now works in part time, minimum wage jobs. My friend will pay for her healthcare as she (friend) values that, but other than that is trying to let this child survive on her own. If her child is happy, she is happy. But as her child struggles or makes poor financial decisions, she worries. This is all normal. But as we happened to have seen a play last night about parachute kits and motel kids, it led to the philosophical discussions about platitudes, hopes, etc.
Well, one could begin with Pew Research Studies, bluebayou. Young adults today are more likely to have debt, and less likely to own a home or have a full time job with benefits, than their parents at comparable ages. Global competition, decline of unions, automation, the rise of the gig economy, the comparatively higher cost of education, have combined to make our children’s futures far less economically stable than their parents’.
Our kids could certainly be more “successful” than us without earning more. If I think about what they might do as a career (e.g. politics, academia, dance are some of the possibilities), none are particularly high paying, compared to what we do. But progressing in any of these areas would involve far more success than either parent was capable of achieving (e.g. getting elected, getting an academic job, being recognized as a performer).
So assuming they earn enough to be self-sufficient (and move out of the house!) then I wouldn’t use earnings/wealth as the measure of their career success, let alone the rest of it (finding a partner and other life milestones).
On the financial front, both our sons have a higher household income now than we do (DH still employed full-time). However, we have pensions and they don’t, plus Social Security is a more known animal in our nearer term. Kids jumped into retirement savings with 401k, living below their means, etc. Their student loans were paid of within two or three years of graduating; took me ten years to pay mine. Home ownership looks like more of a hurdle for them than for us due to costs. Some of that is also due to DS1 living in the Boston area.
As for the satisfaction component of success, I’d say DH and I were a mess because of personal rather than historical factors. In-laws thought the only worthwhile career was scientist or engineer, so that’s what DH went for as a major. He loathed it. My parents were so controlling and critical that I was too frightened to develop an interest in anything. We didn’t want that for our kids, and we think they did a great job lining up their behaviors to what they wanted in their guts. They are much healthier emotionally than we were and are much more self-aware. So a grand success, and DH and I are very impressed.
Finances aren’t correlated with success to us and certainly aren’t expected of our lads. Yes, we want them to be self sufficient, but beyond that, I want them to be happy/content in what they are doing and to leave the world a better place.
Yep, not money, but I expect average income and more importantly good moral choices. So, yeah dating a pothead who is trying to figure himself out “but plays guitar dad” pisses me off a bit.
Both of us are outliers in terms of financial success, even by our industries standards, but this was due to extreme luck. So, the kids are very unlikely to match this “success”, nether they need or want to. However, they both need to be professionally successful and self-supporting to be happy. And these can become very difficult in case of bad luck. Both kids had big health scares at several points, which could have permanently precluded their ability to work (and they are still not out of the woods). Please, remind your children to get long term disability insurance if they can.
Just had this conversation again with DH, who commented that he chatted with a cashier at the supermarket (who looked to be about our age) who was bemoaning the fact that she was having to work this job at her age, and in the play we saw last night, the mom who had to take a job as a disney character (play was set in Anaheim CA) to pay the bills, as they lost their house and were living in a motel.
And my younger s’s MIL whose now ex-H bankrupted them a few years back, wiped out the savings, and she had to get whatever she could (had given up her software training job to be a stay at home mom years before) to keep a roof over her head and get insurance. I have great respect for my s’s MIL who did do this and is working crazy swing shift hours, and she is living hand to mouth. Those are all, IMO, profoundly sad scenarios. There are certainly no guarantees. I want my kids to be happy, safe and secure. That seems like not too much to hope for.
My S has a stable job with good employer and excellent benefits. He’s an excellent saver and lives well below his means so we think he will be financially very comfortable. He has gotten his job to have him doing things he enjoys and is good at: flying drones, wearable tech, robotics and project management. He has saved an impressive amount in retirement and regular investment accounts. He enjoys travel, especially with great deals and has a nice work/life balance.
D on the other hand continues to struggle with chronic health issues but is otherwise happy and lives fairly frugally on our disbursements. If she could become self-supporting, it would be nice, but otherwise we can comfortably support her for life. Her bachelor’s degree complements her interest and talents. She is happy and has a very nice and supportive friend group. She has never held a full-time job but is able to manage her finances well and helps me with graphic arts and is a great sounding board for family and friends.
I don’t know about “expected,” but our son definitely will be at least as financially successful as we are and probably more so. He’s already way ahead of where we were at his age.
Ditto #1.
Regarding the financial aspect, perhaps there is a lot of upper middle class angst because there is a lot more room for downward mobility than upward mobility starting from upper middle class.
Also, many people, even with high income, consume all of their income, so that anything less feels “poor”. E.g. ask someone with a $200,000 income if s/he could live on a $150,000 income.
Better yet, ask someone with $200k income whether they believe that they are middle class or upper class?
Having each generation do better than the one before may be part of the American dream, but I think it’s important to realize that there’s a plateau level. After one generation reaches a certain level of educational, professional, and financial success, it’s likely that the next generations can only match that success, not exceed it. And in some instances they may not even match it.
If you’re a physician (doctoral level education), and your child chooses a career in engineering (which typically does not require a doctorate), is your child a failure? If you earn a very high income in business, but your child becomes a teacher and therefore earns much less, is that failure? I don’t think so.