For Berkeley, this is not generally the case, except for pre-meds who find that general biology (1A, 1B) always have lectures MWF 8-9, and organic chemistry (3A, 3B (for biology majors), 12A, 12B (for chemistry majors)) always have lectures TuTh 8-9:30. This has been the case for decades and is still the case according to the on-line class schedule.
@ucbalumnus Okay, getting technical. Lol
Yes, you can use a 4 on BC to place out of the AB calculus course. I meant to place directly into Multi-variable.
@PurpleTitan When they varied by school, I was looking at engineering.
I’ve taken maybe 8-10 classes at Stanford and was surprised that they weren’t any harder than the classes I took at the University of Alaska or USC. The quality of the teaching was definitely better at Stanford, though, which makes the material more understandable.
It’s always been said that the hardest thing about Stanford is getting in.
I think it depends on the institution, the course, and the student’s aspirations. YOu can’t really generalize in such a sweeping way. Moreover, you must take into account that a student can rise to the expectations of a place, i.e. the question assumes their achievement would be somehow static.
My daughter got into U Cambridge. The style of the institution was extremely rigorous, in that she had to write 2-3 essays per week and defend them in seminars against very bright peers. Her course (anthro-archaeology) was also demanding of significant cultural background, to be largely acquired on one’s own. She struggled and rose to the level demanded, but it was really brutal.
@alcibiade: Neither of Oxbridge are a good comparable to much in the US, though. There are a few places in the US that are similar to some extent who I’ve mentioned (Williams, William Jewell’s Oxbridge Honors, NCF; maybe Swarthmore Honors with it’s external examination), but otherwise, the style is pretty different from most education in the US (or the UK).
I believe course work in the basics will be a pretty similar difficultly EXCEPT in regards to curve. I’m a dual credit student taking courses such as Calc 1, Macroeconomics, English 2, etc at a local community college. The curves I have seen have been insane. In my Pre Calc class last semester, there was a 30 point curve that got me to a 120…
I believe when most students are near-brilliant, a class average in pre calc is very unlikely to be a 40 on the test… I know it’s a skewed exaggeration, but I believe the curve would be the biggest differentiator between selective and less selective universities.
An instructor may write the curve-graded test so that, with the expected strength of students, the typical scores are in the middle of the range, meaning that there are some easier problems that anyone passing the course should be able to solve, but there are also some harder problems that differentiate between C, B, and A students.
@PurpleTitan That’s exactly my point: you need to look at the specifics.
I think academic fit is critical, regardless of which college you believe is academically rigorous or not. My freshman D has HS friends who opted for the lower level of colleges they were admitted to and are regretting it somewhat. “Not academically challenging enough.” “Classes too easy.” These are not rocket scientists - definitely good students who were motivated for some reason to either stay closer to home or make the “easy” choice (sibling goes to same school, etc.), and are now wishing that they had stretched themselves to go to the top schools to which they were admitted.
D is a STEM major at Cal, which is selective and has a reputation for tough academics. At no time has she expressed that it isn’t challenging enough. She is working her tail off but also has enough time for the level of social life she wants (which admittedly is not massive, but it’s appropriate for her). That tells us she is in the right place. Now, if she had chosen a perhaps less challenging school, I’m certain she would be milking the experience (double majoring, accelerated timeframe for graduation, study abroad, etc.) that you see other kids do. There is nothing wrong with that approach, either. Depends upon the kid and how motivated he/she is to maximize their college dollars.
@ucbalumnus Not necessarily. D is taking O-Chem - lecture is at 2:00 on Tue/Thurs. There are afternoon options for some of these core classes - but you may not get the best professors by pushing out classes later in the day (not saying that is the case with her O-Chem). She’s willing to take a class when and wherever if it means getting the classes she needs and the better teacher. Having to get up for 8:00am classes every day is actually easier for her - consistent, and gets her day going. I know not everyone works this way, but enjoy it now, kiddlings. You probably won’t have the luxury of rolling into your post-college full-time job at noon!
And, yes, she had stuff to do during spring break, including an assignment due on the Friday. That’s the downside of the semester system. Quarters = spring break + part-tay. Semesters = spring break + studying, assignments
@Undercrackers: If they want an academic challenge, couldn’t they seek out profs for independent study or take graduate-level classes?
This may not be possible as some HS classmates who experienced being stuck at a very academically unchallenging environment at the local public colleges back in the '90s when they were at their academic nadir for the following reasons:
- Inflexible bureaucracy and associated red tape
- Prioritization of remedial students over above-average academic achievers/genius types
- Graduate classes at one college may actually be equivalent to an intermediate/advanced undergrad course at more respectable/elite colleges.
- Profs in such colleges may not have the time/energy to take on independent study students considering the first two points.
I get the feeling some here want to take a position an then try to back it up, but run out of examples. But as said, there is no generalizing for any one college among the toughest stem, the tougher humanities, and then the you-name-it fields everyone knows kids can walk through. Of course.
So you have to look at your possible major and the programs. I’m sure there are easy classes at Stanford. But overall, it is distinctly not the high school experience. And sure, there can be some mighty challenging courses at some State U, when your field is particularly notable, their rep is tops in that.
One of the things a most-competitive elite looks for is: can this kid keep up with highly prepared peers? They may offer intro calc, but are your peers way ahead, jumping into not just classes but also concepts you haven’t heard of, certainly can’t discuss? And who’s the prof teaching to: the newbie or those advanced kids who form the majority in that class?
I can tell you that our flagship is among the top in several areas D1 wasn’t the least interested in. It’s a perfect and wonderfully challenging experience for those who are. But in her field, she could have gotten A’s with her eyes closed, the peers were basically just showing up, doing what was required. She chose a more selective, so she could stretch.
So, you also ask how much your kiddo is prepare to stretch. And whether they will thrive in stretching- or sink with the first B.
To answer the question, in my experience, the answer is “generally yes”.
The more selective college will teach to a sharper student’s ability.
In addition, at a more selective college, since students are generally higher-ability, there are a lot more people who are capable of succeeding, so being #1 is much more difficult, regardless of the difficulty of the work.
I majored in Topic X at a LAC and then took a class in the same major at Harvard College. I got the same grade at Harvard as I did in nearly all classes at the LAC, but I wasn’t a standout at Harvard College because everyone else there was a standout in the big scheme of things.
every school is very different, there is no one-size-fits-all answer here. Selectivity is driven by number of applications received and the number of students who end up attending. If the kids don’t come, the “selectivity” goes down since the school needs to admit more students to fill all the seats. So the more money the school spends on getting more applications and persuading students/parents to commit, the more “selective” it looks on paper.
Difficulty is different. Good reputable colleges attract great professors who know how to reach and care about students. Watch for “weed-out” schools, I believe there are a few threads on this topic here.
The calculus course I took at Harvard was pretty much the same as Calc BC. (Which I took in high school, but I bombed the AP.)
I don’t think having classes at 8 am makes a university harder. (Though not a morning person myself!) I am pretty sure I had Friday classes every semester. With only a few exceptions classes met MWF or T Th. German met MTWTh. One of my T Th professors said they would meet occasional Saturdays, but in all the years I took classes with him, I think he only did it once, and it was because he had a midweek conference or something.
Indeed.
Despite the fact the service academy where my cousin first attended required cadets to be up by 6 am and be active in various military formations, meals, classes, sporting activities, military training exercises, etc all day with little time for resting, he found the academic side at his service academy to be easier as an engineering major than what he found at Caltech.
And that’s even with the fact the latter didn’t require its students to be awake at 6 am and be reading to be active for most of the day without much breaks/free time.
There has to be a direct correlation between selectivity and academic rigor. By being selective, colleges will be able to admit the best, most intelligent, and qualified applicants. This will allow these schools to make their coursework more challenging because these exceptional students will be able to handle it.
In actuality a lot of the really selective colleges have grade inflation so they are not that academically difficult unless the student chooses to go down that path which lots of times they do.