Are More Selective Colleges More Academically Difficult?

My son spent a year at a “good” northeastern state university. He achieved a 4.0 and received an award for most outstanding student of Spanish at his level. He transferred to a top 25 LAC and tried to take the next level Spanish class. He immediately realized he was totally over his head and had to revert to the next lower level, where he had to work his butt off to achieve an A-. On the other hand, he took Calc II at the LAC and found it to be of a similar level of difficulty as Calc I at the first institution. So I guess it depends.

From my personal experience, I believe it is possible to achieve an excellent education from a lesser competitive institution, if the student is intelligent and self-motivated and pushes the system for opportunities. Such a student will be recognized as the cream of the crop and rewarded with strong faculty support and interesting academic and extra-curricular experiences that can definitely match and exceed experiences and opportunities of the lower two-thirds (guessing) class of more prestigious schools that are “most competitive” in their admissions. From what I saw, such students will have absolutely no problem competing with peers from more competitive institutions in graduate degree programs.

In general, though, regardless of the caliber of the specific professors / courses (which could be even), the caliber of the classroom discussion and engagement (and therefore the overall experience for bright and driven students) is definitely of higher quality at the more competitive institution. Competition is stronger and standards (for example, for writing quality) are higher, so it is more difficult to come away with top, top grades. On the other hand, grade inflation tends to be higher at the more competitive schools; they may still grade on a curve, but the curve is shifted to the right.

Saw this in the header of the forums and laughed. My son is at Reed. You want to talk about rigor? My studied over 50 hours for his last math midterm. The class average was 58%. It was a first year math class! The amount of reading for the freshman required humanities course is over the top. My son’s major social activity is study groups. He tell me the average GPA is 3.1. They practice grade deflation. Put a Reed grad against any highly selective or Ivy and those students wont stand chance.

Perhaps outcomes is a better way to judge. Swarthmore regularly crunches the numbers of students who go on to complete PhDs in a variety of fields. The data is from the NSF. These students do not just get into PhD programs, they complete them.

http://www.swarthmore.edu/institutional-research/doctorates-awarded

Take a look at the PDF that divides PhDs by broad category. Then it gets more interesting.

“For example…a student taking calculus someplace is likely to encounter a very similar level of difficulty. Ditto lots of other courses.”

This. This is why I advise undergrad engineering students to just pick the most affordable option, so long as that school is accredited. My multivariate calc class was every bit as hard as MIT’s, and I had the option to make it even harder through Honors/accelerated uni classes. Calculus and physics is the same content EVERYHERE. Ditto for most engineering courses. Having a fancy-name professor isn’t going to change the field of calculus, etc.

This advice probably varies for other fields, though. I imagine a student majoring in literature would benefit from actual authors as professors, or whatever.

I think at around the top 20 they are all equally selective. There is something called academic peer rank where colleges rate each other for difficulty, and it really shows more than the normal US news ranking. For example, rigor wise, UC Berkeley is 6th in the country, but it is only ranked 20th on the us news overall report. This article illustrates this, but it is a little old: https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2013/02/28/which-universities-are-ranked-highest-by-college-officials

Calculus can and is taught at a variety of different levels, even within a single college. Calculus can be taught at the “business calc” level (no proofs and little trig/logs), “calc for bio majors” (whatever the pre-med requirements say, but no proofs), “calc for engineers” (plenty of trig/logs but not so many proofs), “calc for math/physics majors” (mostly proofs).

There are colleges where calc with proofs is the default, so I would not say that the course rigor is the same everywhere.

My son was taking Discrete Math at our community college when he toured Harvey Mudd. He sat in on Mudd’s Discrete Math class and then we drove home so he could be in time for his community college class. Both classes happened to cover “trees and graphs” in lecture that day. The Mudd class was proof-based and very interesting to him. The coverage at the CC was focused on just getting the answer, and as usual he was fairly bored.

He has no delusions that the math/physics/CS/bio/chem/etc at the college he will likely attend (Caltech) will be anywhere near as easy as the courses he’s taken recently at UCSB. He fully expects to retake Multivariable and Linear Algebra (and maybe even Calc 1/2 depending on the diagnostic test), because his courses were not proof-based, but rather speed-solving based because of the way the tests were scheduled and graded.

Here is an anecdote that may shed some light on this issue. A couple years ago I took my son’s former mock trial team (I was the coach) out to a “reunion dinner” over Xmas break at a hole in the wall near their high school. All of the guys save one were then freshmen in college. Because the guys are all geeks at heart, much of the dinner’s conversation revolved around their courses and what they liked or didn’t like at their various schools. Two kids spoke much less than the others, my son and a kid at MIT. When I asked my son later why he and his buddy were so quiet he said “Because if we told them what it was like they wouldn’t believe us. The stuff that (x kid) said killed him on his chem final we covered in September.”

@Saint68 - Excellent question. The answer is no, not necessarily. First of all, it is important to define selectivity. If you look exclusively at acceptance rates, you will get a distorted picture. Some colleges get a high number of applications because of reasons other than or in addition to academic reputation and perceived difficulty. That drives their acceptance rates lower. My take is, you can safely categorize schools into buckets, like most selective, more selective, less selective. The ones in the higher buckets will admit ON AVERAGE more academically qualified students who will set the curve in many classes. Many of these schools will have the largest endowments, high research spending, and famous faculty with lots of awards such as the Nobel. That doesn’t mean they will challenge students equally or educate them better. But class for class, they will be more challenging than schools on the bottom end. Physics at Cal Tech or Harvey Mudd or Harvard or MIT will be more rigorous than Physics at [insert obscure college name here]. And the writing and reading expectations at Swarthmore, Williams, Amherst, Carleton, Haverford, Bowdoin, Middlebury will be higher than at [insert obscure college name here]. Also, when your child is thrust into an environment where the students are more ambitious, hard-working, and intelligent, she/he will be pushed harder to achieve. On the other hand, if you compare schools within the SAME bucket, you will be splitting hairs. Relative selectivity means nothing except an extra rung on the magazine ranking ladder.

Let’s look at five examples.

1.) UC Berkeley vs. UCLA. I don’t know anyone - not even UCLA students - who would argue that UCLA is academically more rigorous (or even as rigorous/ academically competitive) than Cal, even though there have been years (or at least one year) when UCLA had a lower acceptance rate than Cal. A student’s GPA will most probably suffer more at Cal than at UCLA. But UCLA is desirable in many other ways like location, climate, campus, housing, proximity to a medical school, excellence in non-academic areas such as the performing arts and athletics, and so on. These other factors attract many applicants from across the country (not just CA) who may not consider Cal. Cal, on the other hand, attracts a high concentration of academically intense students who may or may not place as much value on UCLA’s advantages.

2.) U. Chicago vs. Harvard. U. Chicago is intellectually more rigorous than Harvard. Amazing school. But it has a higher acceptance rate. That’s partly because of its location (not exactly Harvard Square) & climate (brrr), and partly because Harvard and its student body are more well-rounded.

3.) I can bet you that the low acceptance rates at Pomona and Claremont McKenna are driven in part by climate and location, when compared to the New England schools of comparable status. Williams has a much higher acceptance rate than Pomona or Swarthmore. Would anyone like to make the case that Williams is less challenging than the other two? Give an Oxford-style tutorial a try. Also, Pitzer has a low acceptance rate, but it is not nearly as academically challenging as its 5Cs brethren. However, this small school is extremely selective in other ways: it is looking for students who want to change the world, people with unwavering commitment to social justice. It also offers a unique, interdisciplinary curriculum that appeals to many students. The applicants who flock to Pitzer love its culture and values (and it has the best food among the 5Cs).

4.) Carleton vs Haverford. The two schools are arguably equal in academic rigor, research opportunities, outcomes, and rankings. Carleton is technically “more selective” with its lower acceptance rate. However, if you look closely, you’ll see that Haverford usually has the higher average incoming GPA, test scores, and high school class rankings. That would imply Haverford students are, on average, more academically competitive than Carls. Or does it? The quality of education and level of challenge are probably the same at both schools. For a given student, the experience will vary based on many factors.

5.) Stanford vs. UC Berkeley. Once you get into the most selective university in the nation, it’s smooth sailing. I know a lot of Stanford faculty, alums, and parents of students. They will tell you that surviving Cal is much more difficult because no one holds your hand, and there is no grade inflation. That’s why our neighbors are stepping over each other trying to get their kids into the local joint.

^ Speaking of Oxbridge-style tutorials, William Jewell’s Oxbridge Honors program also features them. The top students in that program study at Oxford one year as official Visiting Students and evidently are prepared so well that some win awards while at Oxford. New College of Florida also has tutorials and a high percentage of NCF grads enter grad school (NCF punches above it’s weight when you compare grad outcomes with entering stats).

So yes, there are great opportunities at hyper-selective colleges, but also some terrific hidden gem educational opportunities at places that aren’t nearly as selective (which many ignore because they chase prestige instead of a quality education).

Calculus for Engineers IS pretty much the same everywhere. Like, I have friends at every top 20 school in engineering, and some others (like mine) and we have a group chat. Our experiences with the calculus gauntlet are pretty much identical.

I’m a high school senior, so I don’t know how calculus classes compare across colleges. However, somehow, I find it hard to believe they would be the same everywhere. Maybe at the top 20 schools, but not across all schools. I’m basing this on my experience with AP classes across high schools in different school districts. Theoretically, the AP curriculum is the same everywhere and all classes are ultimately teaching to the test. But I went to high school in two districts. In my old high school, it was easier to get into an AP class, and a breeze to get through it. In fact, it was a joke compared to my current high school, where any math class is incredibly challenging, and the AP US History class (“APUSH”) has acquired mythical status. They go way beyond the AP curriculum minimum requirements. Also, teachers here make up more difficult problems whereas in my old high school, teachers pretty much gave us problems out of the textbooks. There’s a reason why my current high school is ranked so highly. The reason for this may be the difference in demographics of the community. We have a lot of parents who are engineers, doctors, and lawyers, educated at top colleges and with graduate degrees, and they go to school board meetings and yell at the board, the superintendent, and our principals when teachers go easy on us. Especially in math. People like my mom are obsessed with math for some reason. It’s crazy. And the funny thing is, my old school district, which was easier, had all sorts of gimmicky titles like “Blue Ribbon School” that their PTA parents chased. My current school district could care less about those things. It’s all marketing.

Not always. One branch of my family had 4 siblings who all majored in engineering at different universities with one transferring up during his undergrad career.

Colleges involved ranged from UMass-Amherst to Caltech.

The cousin who graduated from Caltech started out at one of the Federal Service Academies, but left after a year partially because he wanted more of an academic challenge. When comparing notes with his siblings, the Caltech courses were usually more accelerated and went into more depth than those at his service academy or at his siblings’ colleges.

He had to work much harder at Caltech than he did at the Service Academy…though that was compensated somewhat by the higher minimum mandated courseload and the demands of a 24/7 militarized environment.

While the sibling attending UMass-Amherst or other engineering colleges weren’t slouches, the pacing of engineering/STEM courses weren’t comparable with those at Caltech.

@Orcinus: “Calculus for Engineers at Top 20 Engineering Schools” <> “Calculus Everywhere”.

@PurpleTitan - Yeah, you’re right. Misread. :slight_smile:

There are a few exceptions, like Caltech and Harvey Mudd (where their “calculus” courses are proof heavy, like honors calculus courses elsewhere). However, most colleges outside of these very few exceptions (including “top __” schools) have offer a normal calculus course for engineering and physical science majors that is not greatly different in content from such a course at other schools.

Harvard offers about 7 different variations of calculus. I guess there is no one size fits all at Harvard.

The AP credit requirements seem to imply that there is some modest variation in difficulty.

I don’t think any US News top 12 schools give AP BC Calc credit for a score of 4.
In the #13-#70 range, most schools give credit for a 4 or 5.
From #71 on, schools begin giving credit for a 3, 4, or 5.

There’s no need to hate the players, or in this case the students who are in the selective colleges, but hate the game. The general public perception is that because they are smart students attending smart universities (hopefully), the institutions are assumed to be more academically rigorous, and it is acceptable for these smart students to get straight-A’s which is a whole another discussion. I think the universities and colleges that don’t have the top-25 ranking or even within the top-25 rankings but have legitimate academic rigor got a pretty raw deal as you did so well in high school, but do so poorly in college and no one understands you.

If anything, I think it’s in the details regarding how an academically-rigorous university ‘torments’ the students - if you take Cal for example, they just had their spring break from 3/27~3/31 which is not only much later than other universities, but also professors would schedule their midterms right afterwards which means you have to dedicate your break to study. Most of the core classes have been traditionally scheduled at 8am, which I noticed some universities like University of Michigan’s earliest classes are at 8:30am. For students, that 30-minute difference is a lot!
There are other details that it is virtually impossible to not have a Friday off except for few savvy professors who schedule their classes on MW when most go with MWF.

For adults they sound quite spoiled, but when you have one group of students who get sufficient relaxation verses another group of students who have to constantly wake up earlier and go to classes more often and do not have a proper spring break, all that piles up to have that feeling of ‘academically rigorous’. More importantly, there is really no 1:1 counseling or mentoring service unless you are extremely proactive. It requires a significant self-motivation from the get-go rather than developing it which a lot of students at that age are not ready for. Combined with the fact that you should attend the career fairs to get an internship which is a whole another level of crapshoot and peer pressure , along with other things in life such as relationships, at that point, perhaps studying for a class is the easiest thing in the world.

…until you get your midterm back that had a mean of 35% and standard deviation of 20 and there’s always that one student who manages to get a 90% in the 400+ student class. I wish it were me, but not today. The best thing I can do is move on and study for the next midterm or the final, and deal with roommates who probably didn’t take out the trash or clean the bathroom once again.

Actually only two versions of single-variable calculus (1a-1b, and Ma-Mb which is equivalent to 1a).

However, the sophomore level courses taken after 1b or equivalent are numerous:

18 - for social science majors
19a-19b - for life science majors
21a-21b - for physical science and math majors
23a-23b - honors
25a-25b - higher honors
55a-55b - even higher honors

http://www.math.harvard.edu/pamphlets/beyond.html

Columbia allows placement in calculus 2 (1102) or 3 (1201) with a score of 4 on AP calculus BC.
http://bulletin.columbia.edu/general-studies/undergraduates/academic-policies/ap-credit/

Yale allows students with a score of 4 on AP calculus BC to get 1 acceleration credit after completing calculus 2 (115).
http://catalog.yale.edu/freshman-handbook/academic-information/acceleration/table-of-acceleration-credit/

Chicago allows students with a score of 4 on AP calculus BC to get credit for calculus 1 (15100).
http://collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/thecollege/examinationcreditandtransfercredit/#advancedplacementcredit

Stanford allows students with a score of 4 on AP calculus BC to get 8 quarter units and placement into a higher math course than calculus 1 (21 or 51).
https://registrar.stanford.edu/students/transfer-credit-and-advanced-placement/advanced-placement/ap-credit-chart

Duke allows students with a score of 4 on AP calculus BC to take calculus 2 (112L or 122L):
https://trinity.duke.edu/undergraduate/academic-policies/AP-credit-by-department

@Much2learn: That analysis only works in the cases of colleges that don’t have multiple tracks and are free to set their AP credit policies. The second would be true of many privates but many publics have their AP credit policies mandated to them by state legislatures and of course, bigger research U’s have multiple tracks so just because they give AP calc credit doesn’t mean the calc sequence for engineers isn’t rigorous (so you may be able to AP out of calc I and II but then you’d get killed in calc III and your engineering major classes).