<p>In one sense, yes…but the range of scores within one school tends to be narrow. Where there is low variation, there will be low correlation. Given that many institutions have a student body where the top and bottom quarter of the class are separated by less than one standard deviation, the correlation looks pretty high to me. If a bunch of 1100-scorers showed up at MIT, you’d see the correlation coefficient rise.</p>
<p>I’d be very interested to see data from schools that have comparatively high SAT variation in the student body. This might be the case at some state flagships that aren’t that hard to get into, but attract plenty of high achievers anyway. (Purdue comes to mind.) I’ve never seen any, though.</p>
<p>You’re misinterpreting the percentages. 73% of the applicants with 4.0 GPA were accepted; 2% of the students with 3.0-3.2 were accepted. Don’t add up the percentages, as that doesn’t make sense.</p>
<p>Of those 43 students with high school GPAs of 3.0-3.2 who were admitted to Berkeley, I’d love to know how many were not recruited athletes. Almost all of them, 39 in fact, ended up enrolling at Berkeley.</p>
<p>Kudryvaka said it best: the ‘high school record’ matters the most. The college will look most keenly at what the child chose to take and what grade they got, and then compare that to the strength of what that school actually offered. Are they choosing the highest speed available to them and how does that selection compare to what the school offered.</p>
<p>By far, this is the most important measure and I heard this time and again this summer.</p>
<p>Somehow, somewhere, our culture got way too wrapped around the axle about a standardized test score. Schools have pushed back, apparently, to looking at the high school record and this makes all the sense in the world.</p>
<p>Think about it: you have your choice of surgeon. Do you want the person who makes VERY high grades (quite high) but didn’t do 2300/2400 on the SAT cutting you open, or do you want the person who got the 2300/2400 on one test but had an above average academic performance cutting you open? </p>
<p>Every one of us would hope for the stellar academic student. The SAT/ACT is waaaaaay over-hyped; give us the hardest working academic students any day over the strong standardized test taker who isn’t working hard in school.</p>
<p>You may think it is “way over hyped” but it is still the only constant measure by which colleges can compare applicants. For this reason it is still extremely important for admission chances to selective schools.</p>
<p>Agree with csdad. A person who “works hard” in one school may still not have the knowledge to succeed, or even the work ethic if they are just working hard in comparison to those around them. The SAT and ACT are common yard sticks to allow comparison across schools and states.</p>
<p>What percent weight, then, do you think falls on the shoulders of the great SAT/ACT score? I never said it wasn’t an important measure for admission (there are 5 important measures: rigor, success with rigor, writing ability, community service and impact and standardized test scores) but I am stating that it ain’t nearly as important as we think it is in getting into any school out there, including the selective colleges like the ones I visited this summer, I can assure you. I bet at most it has a 20% weight, if that.</p>
<p>We’ve been conditioned to think it’s the key measure but the admissions officers say that isn’t so. I think we should focus a lot more attention on getting kids to work hard and think than stressing out about one test that probably means about 10-15% of their admission weight to school. </p>
<p>I’d rather spend a day with a kid who can talk to me about how the gene works versus 10minutes with one who has developed the skill through an SAT test-taking class to weed out 60% of the incorrect answers on a multiple choice question and guess between the last two answers. Seriously. </p>
<p>There is NO way SAT’s account of only 20% of admissions… All you have to do is look at the USN rankings… look at the 25%-75% range on SAT’S. It is scary. I agree with what you are saying about a hard working kid should be rewarded in life… but as far as colleges go… the SAT is weighted HEAVILY… if it wasn’t than the SAT ranges listed would be much lower. No matter what college admissions rep’s are saying… it is all about SAT scores.</p>
<p>5boys, those high- scoring students at Ivies and other top schools also have top grades and top ECs. If you looked at 25%ile-75%ile GPAs at top schools, they would be similarly stratospheric. This is easy to verify by going to one of the Ivy forums here and looking at the data reported by accepted students.</p>
<p>5boys…It is not ALL about SAT scores. The SAT scores are only one component. I too would rather hire someone who did very well in regard to grades anyday. What the heck does the SAT on one given day have over a student who has taken very rigorous classes and performed very well and earned high grades on AP exams. Heck, I value SAT subject tests more than I do SATs or the ACT. A kid who has a high SAT but has not performed well in school is either lazy or immature…in my opinion these are not good candidates for what lies ahead at a top university. If they are trully late bloomers than they have time to prove themselves in less rigorous schools and tranfer to a more academically challenging school later on if so desired. Kids who have performed at the top of the heap and were involved in some interesting ECs with serious commitment should be thought of as the intelligent kids, not a kid who can sit at a test and score high but did’nt strain his brain for 4 years. By the way there are kids in some cultures (usually the very hard working kids) who practice for the SAT since 7th grade. They learn how to take the test but at least they have the course grades to back up the SAT scores.</p>
<p>Interesting summaries in links from ucbalumnus</p>
<p>The first study concludes that genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration and goes so far as to say once a slacker, always a slacker.</p>
<p>The second study says in 13 pages what Hanna conveyed in two sentences:
</p>
<p>In other words, you can’t evaluate predictive value of hsgpa/SAT on a single highly selective campus. Slackers of the 10 campuses unite! Your data is critical to the development of the universal theory of admissions criteria.</p>
<p>CCsite: I know it is hard not to but don’t feel too bad. I keep reminding myself that I know tons of perfectly well adjusted happy people in life and hardly any of them went to a prestigious college. This site is horrible for the nerves in many ways.</p>
<p>Just remember, her grades prove she is a hard worker and that counts a lot in life. When she is 35, living her life and succeeding no one is going to give a darn about any act score!</p>
<p>To answer the question: I think for many public schools class rank is a little more important with test scores following close behind. But, I think smaller schools, less prestigious schools look at it differently. Just my opinion.</p>
<p>…SAT’s are kind of like the “gatekeeper” in selective college’s admisssions. If you don’t have them…you aren’t getting in. However the other factors you mentioned (GPA, rigor, EC’s) can keep you out also. Why I say they are very important is that at our school over the years, SAT scores have what kept, by far,more top 10 students out of the top schools than the other variables combined. We are a pretty typical rural medium sized high school.</p>
<p>The GC at our private prep strongly advises students with scores below 1400 (math+CR) not to apply to the most selective schools, regardless of GPA. My kids applied (and will apply this year) to schools based on the strength of their SATs. They both already had excellent grades, most rigor, etc. The SATs are the last, but most important piece of the puzzle for highly selective schools. A high GPA/low SAT student may look like a hard worker, but some colleges may wonder if the student will be able to handle the work - or it could simply be test anxiety. A low GPA/high SAT student may look lazy, but they may get serious in college. If a student has either a low GPA or low SATs, perhaps the other parts of the puzzle are more important, but it is rare to see either admitted to the most selective schools. A classmate of D’s with high SATs and middling grades (although most rigorous) was rejected at a few ivies, but he was accepted to a top 20 school. My guess is that once this kid matures and focuses, he has a lot of potential. </p>
<p>I have never seen an unhooked low SAT/high GPA student at our school accepted to an ivy or top 20. And, GPAs at this particular school are not inflated. My S has a GPA of 93, and he’s the val. One of the English teachers never gives a grade above 90, for example. At the local public, about 50% of students are on the honor roll, with a good 20% making high honors. Clearly, high GPA is somewhat subjective, while SATs are a national standard.</p>
<p>If I were a betting mom, I’d say that a high SAT/low GPA student has a better shot at top 20 schools than the reverse situation, with these caveats:</p>
<p>Must have the most rigorous course load
GPA must not be “too” low
SAT must be quite high - above 2250
Lots of ECs and other interesting activities that “explain” the lower GPA</p>
<p>I do think high SAT/low"er" GPA students get more of a pass than the other way around because it looks like they have significant upside potential and with some maturity, they may blossom in the college setting. Ad coms may be afraid to take students who are really hard workers because they fear they’ll struggle with college level material.</p>
<p>SAT can be lower if one of the scores is within the margin of error for 800 - especially if it’s a boy with a high verbal score, or a girl with a high math score
the high math girl will be sought after at tech schools
the high verbal boy will be sought after at LACs, especially ones that are 60% or more female
It helps if GPA is low because of freshman year grades or one bad subject (like a foreign language)
It really, really helps if GPA is low, but rank is high</p>
<p>In my first post I named a few schools where my son had good luck, however his official GPA (and therefore his rank) was bolstered by four years of two orchestra classes each term. His real GPA was around a B+, his low grades were nearly all in Latin plus Chem freshman year, and his verbal score was 790.</p>
Levirm, that’s because I really don’t think there are any top schools that will take a high SAT at the expense of low GPA. However, the OP does NOT really have that case. From another post:
The OP’s child is in the top 10% of a HS that regularly sends students to Ivies. GPA is not an issue.</p>