<p>i had around a 3.6 and a score in the high 2200’s…i made it into chicago, middlebury, wesleyan, haverford, bowdoin, and cornell. i’d say my grades–though it might have been my rushed, poorly thought out essays, too–kept me out of my first choices, which were all slightly more competitive</p>
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<p>Perhaps the simplest explanation is that, for applying to the most selective schools, both test scores and grades in the most rigorous course selection available must be close to “maximum” possible to have a possibility of admission without major hooks. However, that is nowhere near sufficient for admission.</p>
<p>Low test scores or low grades or less rigorous course selection will likely eliminate any chance of admission to the most selective schools.</p>
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<p>Actually, I did answer the OP’s question. Schools that place a high(er?) value test scores tend to chase NMSF’s; these can be found by googling colleges that offer NM scholarships. USC might easily accept an NMSF with a B+ average, for example, but that same student who was not NM would be quickly rejected.</p>
<p>I just read the whole thread and looked back at some of OP’s other posts- and have no idea what the son’s gpa is. Maybe I missed it. OP says he took most-rigorous classes (which may have affected grades) But, we don’t know how competitive grades are, in his hs. Or, how poorly he did in some classes that his gpa dropped.</p>
<p>Also no idea what his potential major is, which matters. If he’s, eg, a math major and gets B’s in Spanish- that’s easily ignored. OTOH, if he wants engineering and does so-so in science- oooh, boy. If his gpa is bolstered by orchestra, ceramics and public speaking- well, nope. It does look good if he’s maxed out all the math, taken cc classes to supplement, etc. </p>
<p>All Common App schools agree to evaluate holistically. That’s not just about weighing the whole app; context matters- the quality of the hs, it’s offerings and grade system. This helps them know what, say, a 3.5 means, versus a 3.9. Context also means the socio-economic advantages, harder to explain. </p>
<p>The most selective colleges view themselves as challenging. They need to know this is a kid who has chosen to test himself and come out on the positive side. That’s why rigor matters. But it’s also why peformance matters. They need to know this is a kid who can test his non-academic limits, as well. That’s where ECs come in- did climb out of his comfort zone? Did he make commitments over time, rise in responsibility- and do more than just what the hs or some hs club offers?</p>
<p>As for SATs, I think you are missing that many top schools don’t give info on cumulative scores. Eg Yale, 25-75%: SAT-V 700-800 and SAT M 710-790. That doesn’t tell you whether the admitted kid who got 790 M also got 600 in CR. So, it’s misleading. You get the idea of how the top percentile fared in each test, but you don’t know the individual combinations of scores. Or, the other compelling factors in favor of those kids who were accepted.</p>
<p>So, can a kid with high scores and, say a 3.5-3.7 uw gpa get into a competitive college? Sure. But not based on a look at scores, gpa, rank, etc, alone. </p>
<p>Btw, IME, many a top performer wrecks his own chances by poorly presenting ECs, writing a dumb essay and having tepid LoRs. With rare exceptions, it’s not all about stats.</p>
<p>Gourmetmom, ^^^^</p>
<p>I’m simply recounting experience gained directly from top southern elite school admission officers from this summer: ‘the academic record is first judged and a high SAT score will not overcome an average or even an above average academic record.’</p>
<p>The kids who will get the benefit of the doubt (ie, ‘the pass’ as you note) are the other way around: super high GPA/rigor and low(er) SAT/ACT scores.</p>
<p>the ks.</p>
<p>And one more question that isn’t considered: what about the over 850 schools that are now test-optional? </p>
<p>Look at Wake Forest. Can anyone tell me with a straight face that that school isn’t a strong school? It just ranked very highly in the US News and World Report and they don’t give a rip what you make on a standardized test when it comes to admission. </p>
<p>They have a super medical school and a track-in program for great undergrads. 35% of their undergrads upon graduation go on to additional schooling in some manner.</p>
<p>What matters most is how hard you work in your classes! We’ve all been groomed into thinking that standardized testing is the measure and it isn’t anymore.</p>
<p>the ks.</p>
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<p>That is a logical fallacy. Wake Forest went test optional for those (few?) students who don’t test well (and perhaps to hide the numbers of their athletic recruits). But, I can assure you that 700’s across the board will get their attention, particularly if packaged with a B-type student. So, even test optional schools “give a rip” about test scores. (If they really did not “give a rip”, the school would drop tests entirely.) Test optional schools are just providing an out for those applicants that, for whatever reason, believe that their test scores do not reflect their academic ability.</p>
<p>kitesurfer: can’t agree that SATs are no longer the measure. Since you mentioned the south, I’ve been reading a lot of commentary that says for example Georgia grade inflation took off like a runaway horse after initiation of HOPE scholarships. </p>
<p>Although all parents insist their kid’s high school is more rigorous than most, in some cases it’s true. That high GPA will be immediately suspect in the face of a 1750 SAT score.</p>
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Actually go and look at the Common Data Set. <a href=“Home - Office of Institutional Research”>Home - Office of Institutional Research; The school will consider standardized tests when submitted. As bluebayou states, the tests would NOT be considered if they didn’t care.</p>
<p>If the top schools don’t care about test scores, why is my hs senior son (and many others, to be sure) receiving boatloads of propaganda from nearly every ivy and top 20 school? All they know about him they’ve heard from the Collegeboard. They want him to apply - sure they’ll look at his grades, ECs, etc., but they also want those strong test scores.</p>
<p>While on the topic of SAT scores, I’m surprised at the number of people who claim that high scores can be achieved by learning “tricks”, like it’s some sort of magic act. I guess a certain amount of gaming the test is possible, with respect to leaving answers blank vs guessing, but this will not produce a 2000+ score in the absence of critical thinking. And doing math drills will produce a high math score because the kids have learned the math. But a high CR or W score requires a real understanding and accurate interpretation of the passages provided. I am most in awe of non-native English speakers who are able to ace these portions of the test.</p>
<p>Wake Forest is one of the test optional schools that buys student names from CollegeBoard for recruiting purposes.</p>
<p>*Many of the same colleges that have ended SAT requirements, noting that wealthy students tend to do well on the exam and that many black and Latino students succeed in college while not doing well on it, may trust the SAT in other ways. These colleges buy the names of high-scoring students from the College Board (and from the ACT) and use those names to recruit prospective students, Bloomberg reported. *</p>
<p>And WF requires SAT scores for many of their merit scholarships</p>
<p>Many test optional schools still collect scores so they can run institutional research on whether scores predict success. Bates tracked 20 years and found the difference in graduation rates is 0.1%. The diff is .05% in college GPA.</p>
<p>G’mom, most of our kids receive marketing materials, if they check the right “potential field of study” on the PSAT. My D2 got plenty from top schools; she had stated pre-med- and her scores were awful.</p>
<p>I know that all students receive marketing materials, but I can see a huge difference in the materials my son is receiving now compared to what my daughter received two years ago. She had very good scores, but he has perfect SATs and APs. The amount of emails, phone calls, multiple mailings, info about specific programs, invitations to on and off campus events, etc. is significantly greater, which I attribute to both his SAT and AP scores. There is no question in my mind that his scores are driving this.</p>
<p>Scores may drive recruiting, because that is what the schools have convenient access to (through buying lists of names of students with scores greater than some threshold from the College Board). It is a lot more hassle for the schools to try to get names of top students by grades and course rigor from every high school.</p>
<p>This thread has become unwieldly. If there is anyone out there, less lazy than myself, who could make an actual concise list of schools that answers the question, that would probably be helpful to a lot of people. The thread seems to have gone off on several tangents and internal discussions.</p>
<p>^The list depends on how “bad” the grades are and many other factors.</p>
<p>FWIW, again!</p>
<p>My B+ son (top 6% rank though) got into Tufts, Chicago, and Vassar and was rejected by Harvard, Brown, and Georgetown. He got a Presidential Scholarship at American. He spent a lot of time on the essays and wasn’t afraid to be funny and a little quirky. I think he also had excellent recommendations.</p>
<p>I got into HYPSMC with a 1620 SAT and a 2.95 GPA</p>
<p>I got a recommendation letter by BArack Obama… (Im the son of one of his advisors)</p>
<p>For Floridadad55,
The reason that such threads become unwieldy is the same reason that financial aid information is such a swamp. There is a ton of “it depends”. Details matter. No admission officer would ever build a class simply on GPA and SAT stats. Somebody has to make the cross country team coach happy and somebody really should take home that alum sponsored tuba scholarship . . . </p>
<p>Truthfully, most of the CC information could be obtained by buying a coffee for the parent in your school district that 1) has a kid very similar to yours but 2) is one to two years ahead of your kid. </p>
<p>Passions so often trump scores – in anything but the top 100 colleges. I know a brilliant kid who took five years to finish high school (miserable GPA) who talked himself into a spot at a smallish public college by walking into Admissions and saying “My grades stink but I’m ready to study Economics and here’s why I think I can succeed here . . .” (The young man has been interested in Economics for years). </p>
<p>So, start with the passions – and then add in the GPA and SAT’s.</p>