Are they stupid or do they think we are stupid.....

Parents Forum
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<p>I don’t think anyone implied that all teachers or even most are awful- however when your own child has had, one, two or even three awful, or even mediocre teachers in a row, it affects their academics, their emotional and social health for a long time.</p>

<p>My husband is still bothered by a 2nd grade teacher that used to make fun of him ( I am not saying he is constantly bothered- but in the 30 years I have known him- he has mentioned it several times).
Parents need to be able to discuss their frustration and pain, in seeing their children in situations like that-I know it helps me to have someone say " no it wasn’t right",You have a right to be angry".</p>

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<p>Re: forgotten homework. Do teachers ever forget anything? Do ANY of us ever leave something we needed in the car or at home? We don’t consider ourselves to be irresponsible, so why are the children not allowed to forget sometimes?</p>

<p>Also, on the subject of professions policing themselves to eliminate substandard members, I must disagree. Other professions are busy too, but manage to oversee their members. Maybe it is not done be individuals, but by governing bodies who set standards that are then enforced by supervisors. For teachers, this would probably be done by principals under the direction of superintendents. Enforcement of standards is really a hallmark of a profession.</p>

<p>emeraldkity, I know what you mean about having several bad teachers is a row. My poor D has not had a decent math teacher in the past four years. One year she had FOUR different math teachers due to maternity leave. She is advanced in math, but is beginning to doubt her ability because of this run of bad luck with class assignment. What can I do? Can I request a good and experienced math teacher next year? I nearly removed her from math to homeschool her in that subject this year…I really can’t take another bad math teacher, and neither can she.</p>

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<p>I tend to give teachers the benefit of the doubt. In general, if I have an issue I’ll approach it with the attitude that they are the ‘expert’ and I’m the willing supporter (that is, I try to make my idea seem like it’s their’s - doesn’t always work but it’s worth a shot (same as with husbands - haha). </p>

<p>That being said, I have to admit there is a certain laziness at our school that I finally had to acknowlege recently when my son came home and said they had a sub that day, and she taught them more about the subject than their regular teacher had all year (assume he’s exaggerating, but…). The next day my son said the kids told the teacher, and she was visibly upset. I hope she uses that as an “Oprah ah-ha moment”, and moves on with lesson learned. </p>

<p>But it made me think of all the times my kids have said they spent two days of math class watching a popular movie, or how certain teachers spend an inordinate amount of class time yakking about some special interest of theirs that has nothing to do with the subject. That’s just plain laziness.</p>

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<p>" Re: forgotten homework. Do teachers ever forget anything? Do ANY of us ever leave something we needed in the car or at home? We don’t consider ourselves to be irresponsible, so why are the children not allowed to forget sometimes? "</p>

<p>My response:(as a PARENT - and I AM a teacher) My child’s schoolwork and attendance is their JOB. It is very important and not comparable to forgetting “things in the car.” Forgetting their homework is, to me, comparable to me forgetting vital things for my job such as lesson plans and tests to be given. They must learn responsibility and they’re not going to learn it if the parent runs interference for them.</p>

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<p>Homework: as a person and a parent, I have a real problem with the obsession some teachers have about the promptness of homework. This stems mostly from having gone to private schools (elementary, HS, and college) where daily homework was ungraded and mostly un-turned-in (while major projects were very important, but not done on a daily basis). I think homework has become some sort of mythological grail that is used to determine the success of students who “try hard” but really aren’t very smart. (HW is used to bring the C student to a B, in other words.)</p>

<p>In consequence, when I taught full-time, I assigned homework by the week and accepted it all day Mondays, graded on completion and gave it a very minor part of the overall grade—except for those serious assignments that I expected students to really push on, like full lab reports.</p>

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<p>I don’t get the obsession with hw either. Homework is for the student to learn, and every little step in the learning process does not need to be overseen by the teacher, imo. I know brilliant kids who never do homework and rarely take any notes in class; still, they can ace the tests. D’s school will not even let kids get completed hw from their lockers if they forget to pick it up while madly rushing from one end of the building to the other in less than four minutes, much less if they left it on their desks at home. </p>

<p>Amazingly, I sometimes forget vital things at work: to take something to work with me, to turn something in on time or to follow up on a problem that I made note of. I’m not perfect and nobody I work with is perfect either, thank goodness. ;)</p>

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<p>It’s worth noting that acing the exams is no indication of actually learning the material. One of the things I’ve learned in high school is that homework is important if you want to retain what you pick up in the classroom. That didn’t stop me from dodging the homework requirement every chance I got, but hey, what can I say?</p>

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<p>Cheez doodles----(now I’m hungry, I don’t even like them!)—I will point out that it’s impossible to ace a well-written exam unless you understand the material. It’s the well-written part that’s a problem. Personally, I’m in favor of open-book tests (and I used to give them, too, since the evidence show students know more after an open-book test than they did before it).</p>

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<p>Being able to understand the material for the single class period allocated for the exam isn’t the problem. It’s a feat that can be accomplished by anyone with a good short term memory and a honed ability to regurgitate what was crammed the night before. It’s ensuring that you will continue to understand the same material a year after taking the class that’s the real trick. Repetition leads to retention, and that’s where homework comes in.</p>

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<p>I had a second grade experience that still leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. My class was painting pumpkins, and myself and two other students were done. We were told to wash our hands and materials. Now, our school was two stories, we were on the second floor. There was only ONE set of bathrooms, on the first floor. The art teacher (who rotated from class to class) had a wash/ supply room on the second floor, with a sink. So we, in our second grade wisdom, washed in the supply room. All would have been fine, but that the other students in the class came in after I had left, and made a huge mess.</p>

<p>We were caught, and what really gets me is that the principal KNEW I had not made the mess, but gave me detention any way. Even at 7, I knew that this was a travesty of justice :wink: Clever kids always seem to be punished for their cleverness.</p>

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<p>I think that essay tests to prove depth of understanding or quantitative tests that require application of knowledge to new situations proves that material was learned and that higher level thinking occurred. Really, these could probably even be take-home tests if they are designed well.</p>

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<p>LOL. I haven’t read this whole thread yet, but the stories are funny so far.</p>

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<p>ooh this is fun, one of the vice-principals at the high school apparently watches school camera surveillance from the comfort of his own home. at night.</p>

<p>i think that’s probably around the point where it’d be a good idea to get a dog or something else that demands attention. :P</p>

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<p>The “job” of homework</p>

<p>In second grade, my S had a teacher who handed out a ton of homework. S didn’t have any trouble remembering to take it to school after it was done; but he did forget to bring assignments home - maybe once a month he would forget a book or handout. Probably just a handful of times in the whole year. Not bad for a seven-year-old. If we went back to school to get something, and the teacher was still in the room, she would refuse to let him get it. “He must learn responsibility and accept the consequences.” She did this to every student, whether they forgot daily, or once. The consequences were severe: In addition to getting an academic zero for forgotten homework, this teacher also gave them bad marks in a variety of social skills on the report card – everything from responsibility to organization to… One mistake led to incredible things. I watched several children “give up” that year.</p>

<p>My S was a perfectionist and a high-performer. This was devastating to him. S was our firstborn, so we were learning as we went along. We as a family decided that the purpose of our child’s public school education was academic only. His “job” was to learn academics. I guess you could say we agree with the teachers who complain that too many parents are abdicating their roles and making the teacher do everything. In our opinion, the teacher was there to teach math, spelling, etc. It was our job to teach social skills such as responsibility. (Caveat: my children did not have behaviors that affected anyone in the classroom besides themselves.) It was not a decision we were willing to let the teacher make for us. If my child forgot his math book, perhaps he would “learn” consequences, but he wouldn’t learn math. (Some kids just learned that it meant they didn’t have to do homework that night.) That didn’t make sense to us. If the homework was important enough to do at all, then he would do it if we had any control.</p>

<p>So we did help S wherever possible - timing our trips back to school when the teacher wasn’t there, or borrowing materials from a classmate. The catch was, we charged our kids a portion of their allowance for our time, for any trip we had to make – whether it was a missed bus or a forgotten assignment. He received appropriate consequences that fit the “crime” – rather than academic ones. He learned that his parents valued his education, and were on his side, but also had expectations.</p>

<p>The story has a happy ending, as he has been responsible enough to graduate from an Ivy and hold down a respectable job (and we are too far from him to help.)</p>

<p>Happily, the school system has since instituted limits on homework – for lower grades it is 10 minutes per night per grade. (20 minutes then, for a second grader - about 1/6th what he was doing.) And the percentage of the final grade that can come from homework has also been limited – in part to take the parent who does his kid’s HW out of the equation! </p>

<p>This “job” of academics became our yardstick for future school involvement with all our kids.</p>

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<p>I can’t agree that taking negative consequences for forgotten homework teaches responsibilty, or that having mom bring forgotten items to the school teaches dependence - not all the time, anyway. My co-worker’s daughters are always forgetting stuff and calling mom for help. She resolutely refuses to come to the rescue, but in the 5 years we’ve worked together this seems to have taught them … nothing. They’re still forgetting stuff, only now it’s more important stuff. And man, are they persistent - kind of makes me question the concept of negative reinforcement.</p>

<p>I will always shoot up to the high school with a forgotten musical instrument or assignment or lunch (that’s why they pay me the big bucks, after all) - but I almost never have to. Four times in 4 years for kid #1, who is the most easily distracted; twice for kid #2; and so far, nunca for kid #3. Now ask me how many times their father has called me to see if I can bring him his wallet, his phone, his beeper, etc. And this is a very responsible guy (responsible for the lives of sick children every day). So the concept of teaching responsibility can’t be reduced to taking the consequences for leaving your homework at home - it’s more complicated than that.</p>

<p>I do think it’s too bad there’s such an “us versus them” mentality on both sides of the parent-teacher relationship, which this thread has so clearly illuminated. The overwhelming majority of my children’s teachers have been very good or better, and some have been brilliant. Tabbyzmom, anxiousmom, and other teachers reading this: I respect and value your hard work, dedication, and creativity in teaching our children, as does every thinking person! Still, I’m glad this thread has shown the high incidence of silly policies and rules-for-their-own-sake common in classrooms across the US. Parents need to vent about these (and venting can be fun, after all).</p>

<p>Interestingly, my 15 y/o’s global studies teacher recently introduced a discussion about dictatorships by asking the kids to share stories about silly, nitpicky classroom rules. This guy is a phenomenal teacher! His students pay attention because they can’t wait to hear what he’ll say next.</p>

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<p>What can a parent do when a teacher is a renegade and refuses to follow the school rules? I’m not talking about silly things like teachers dressing in a way that violates the students’ dress code, although this is really bad. I mean things like not following the volume of homework and testing policies or refusing to adhere to the prescribed curriculum. I have spoken to some teachers and principals when needed, but my children have experience retribution for parental intervention and I’m afraid to push too hard. In my most recent experience, the teacher was called on the carpet by the principal and responded by bringing his union representative. Talk about “us vs. them”! The union rep and teacher agreed to follow policy, but thus far no changes have been made. What to do now?</p>

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<p>What do you all think of “group punishments”" – ESPECIALLY when the teacher knows who the offender(s) is/are? </p>

<p>My son’s middle school teacher (previous school) routinely gave group punishments even tho he admitted that he knew which kids were the problem. He kept insisting that the “good kids’ would put pressure on the bad kids to behave if they (the good kids) were punished, too. Because his group punishments always consisted of EXTRA homework of writing a two page typed essay on the subject of his choice (which caused my child to stay up to past midnight too may times), I complained, to no avail. AFTER two years of this nonsense (and the same kids were STILL misbehaving, I asked him (in Dr. Phil fashion) “How’s it working for you???” (because obviously 'his method” had not worked – the “good kids” weren’t able to have the effect that he had wanted). He stopped the silly group punishments and began targeting the culprits. How strange – targetting the culprits worked!!!</p>

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<p>If this the subject of this thread was about bad experiences with doctors or hospitals, would the above posting teachers be sooooo upset, even tho the thread would not be implying that all, or even most, doctors or hospitals are inept? Certainly not, these annoyed teachers would probably have a few choice stories to add, too!!! And, certainly EVERYONE would admit that good doctors and are “hard working” and “love what they do,” so no difference there. And, certainly everyone would admit that the rest of us folks certainly don’t “know” what doctors know, soooooo, what is this weird hypocrisy?? (How many of us (including you upset teachers) are annoyed when some doctors treat our questions like were a bunch of ignorant “non doctors” (and therefore can’t possibly know anything). Of course many of us could list story after story about times when family members have caught the mistakes of doctors and hospitals before something disasterous happened. (Wise doctors & hospitals know that everyone makes mistakes. Therefore before my hubbies recent hip replacement, the hospital told us to write “NO” in big letters on the skin of my hubbie’s “good hip” and put “YES” on his “bad hip” so that there wouldn’t be an error while he was “under” anesthesia.</p>

<p>If this thread was about nutty and incompetant parents, would I, a good parent, get upset??? No!!!</p>

<p>For the hundredth time, there are MANY great teachers, this thread is about crazy, sad, nutty things/rules that some teachers/schools do. If the stories don’t apply to you, congratulate yourself… YOU are not a nutty annoying teacher; you’re doing a great job. </p>

<p>Now, put this thread in perspective…Good teachers should not fear this thread…It’s not about you!</p>

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<p>Emerald’s point is EXACTLY the point: </p>

<p><<< when your own child has had, one, two or even three awful, or even mediocre teachers in a row, it affects their academics, their emotional and social health for a long time. >>></p>

<p>Can’t these “upset posting teachers” understand that if a child, say in middle school, has 4 good/great teachers and just 1 awful teacher during the same year, that one awful teacher ruins the WHOLE year. That one awful teacher not only upsets the child but can upset an entire household! That one awful teacher can “ruin” the child’s outlook on school for all of his other classes (for that last reason alone, I would think that good teachers would want their unions/districts to STOP protecting bad teachers). </p>

<p>On an earlier “erased” post, I said that I have been a “long term sub” for many years. I have seen “both sides”. I know that there are crazy parents who make unrealistic demands. I calmly & diplomatically let them know why that their request “won’t work” or “isn’t doable”. (It’s not what you say, it’s how you say it.) On the other hand, there have been parents who have brought valid concerns/complaints to me and I have gladly admitted error or oversight. I do so not only because it is the “right thing to do” but also I know that parents talk to each other and I don’t want some parent saying, “Mrs. So So wouldn’t admit her mistake when I brought it to her attention.” I would RATHER have such parents say to each other, “Mrs. So and So is great. If there has been a mistake with a grade or whatever, she’ll do the right thing.” That is the way to earn respect. Denying when a parent (or child) has a VALID point only earns disrespect.</p>

<p>As a long-term sub, I also have seen, first hand, that there are lazy, dumb and/or “no people skills” teachers. That doesn’t mean that I am one or that my 3 teaching sisters-in-laws are either!</p>

<p>And, no, I haven’t “kept a journal” (as was suggested). The fact that these incidents are so memorable only proves Emeralds and my thesis: that a bad teacher and/or school have long lasting effects on the child and the family.</p>

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<p>Previous posts:</p>

<p><<<" Re: forgotten homework. Do teachers ever forget anything? Do ANY of us ever leave something we needed in the car or at home? We don’t consider ourselves to be irresponsible, so why are the children not allowed to forget sometimes? ">>></p>

<p><<<< My response:(as a PARENT - and I AM a teacher) My child’s schoolwork and attendance is their JOB. It is very important and not comparable to forgetting “things in the car.” Forgetting their homework is, to me, comparable to me forgetting vital things for my job such as lesson plans and tests to be given. They must learn responsibility and they’re not going to learn it if the parent runs interference for them. >>></p>

<p>Adults leaving something in the car/home IS comparable to a student leaving homework at home - if it’s occasional. EVERYONE occasionally leaves something behind. (of course if its in the car, an adult can go get it.) If a child or adult ROUTINELY does it, then in is a problem. If it is an occasional thing, then it’s normal – it’s not irresponsible. It just happens. Life is complicated on some days… </p>

<p>Also, when a teacher does leave something behind at home (and it does happen) there are no consequences, no 'bad grade" for them. Frankly, their principals probably never even know it happens! But if a child leaves something at home, the child gets an F. It doesn’t matter if this is an unusual occurrance or if there is a good reason for it.</p>

<p>We all “run interference” for each other. When my hubby occasionally forgets to bring his wallet, I’ll meet him for lunch and give it to him. When I sometimes forget something, he’ll bring it to me. If my kid forgets to bring his luch, I’ll bring it to him. These things happen very occasionally, so it’s not a problem. It’s just the things we do for love. </p>

<p>I AM NOT making excuses for kids who chronically forget stuff – those kids are irresponsible. I am talking about normal “forgetting” like EVERYONE does!</p>