<p>Alh, I’m not going to read 58 pages, but yes I did peruse the exec summary. Not a fan of lobbyists (Ing)) either. But the article doesn’t change what I already posted. The entire tax system is fubar on so many different levels. When dstark said “I’d be happy if they taxed the first dollar” I completely agree. If the tax code were simplified and cleaned up, it all becomes moot. I still believe that if I’ve already earned money and paid taxes on it – on every dollar – then I should be able to give it to my heirs without further taxation unless it is on their investment earnings. Doesn’t matter they didn’t “earn” it. I did, it’s mine, I paid taxes on it already and its mine to do with as i wish without further govt pilfering–or at least i believe it should be. So sorry about the lucky sperm club. Life isn’t fair, but trying to tax our way into someone else’s definition of social justice just isn’t my cup of tea. And no I haven’t inherited money, and for the record I don’t plan to leave an estate of a size that falls under estate taxes. My last will and testament will read “being of sound mind and body, I spent it.” ;-).</p>
<p>koch does ring a bell…</p>
<p>proudmom: dstark showed us this morning no one is paying estate taxes any more. Then he gave us this link that shows how much money is in some estates. It is pretty staggering imo</p>
<p>I understand completely alh. I have read the posts and the exec summary of the link We just disagree on some of the issues and points. But also agree on some . I’ve really enjoyed this thread.</p>
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<p>How could you even know this? Maybe most of those people with large inheritances worked hard at kissing their parents’ … for 60 years before they got the money (or managed their lives or cared for them while they were dying). Who are you to judge whether they worked hard for that money? Why does being a secretary at a job s/he chose qualify as “working hard” while dutifully abiding in a way that sufficiently pleases a rich parent one cannot choose does not?</p>
<p>“How could you even know this? Maybe most of those people with large inheritances worked hard at kissing their parents’ *sses for 60 years before they got the money”</p>
<p>oh my goodness… this sounds like someone complaining about how “hard” it is to have to wait to be rich - kinda like Prince Albert complaining that his mother, Queen Victoria, just would not die!
And we are to feel sorry for someone who will never have to worry about running out of money to feed themselves? Or worry about having enough to pay medical expenses if they are sick? or never worry if they will have health insurance ? Or lose their home because they cant pay their ever increasing property taxes? seriously?</p>
<p>“40 of the US pays no FIT at end of day”
you mean the 40% who make less than $35,000/ year and pay the same price /gallon of gas as millionaires, require the same basic amount of food per day [ min 1800 calories - which does cost $] as millionaires, pay the same sales tax rate on their purchases as millionaires, pay rent for a roof over their heads, and in addition, have SS taxes withheld from their meager pay checks? Those 40%?
Tell us how they are supposed to pay FIT too, and not starve?
Oh, that’s right. Its not your concern. You’re a Libertarian.</p>
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<p>Of course you are. Millionaires paying the same rate as people below the poverty line – what’s not to like, if you’re a one-percenter?</p>
<p>Bay…I love your post.</p>
<p>So kissing … is now a job?</p>
<p>You are assuming that 80 million people aren’t kissing …everyday…trying to survive on crap wages? </p>
<p>We are going to decide how much somebody should own by how much that person kisses … Where do I sign up? My parents just did not have the right … Maybe I can find different … to kiss. </p>
<p>Next time you see somebody and you don’t think that person is working hard enough just ask yourself, “Maybe that person looks like he isn’t working hard, but…is that person kissing somebody’s a@@?”</p>
<p>I just love the argument the wealth of the richest is derived from hard work…yes…hard work and sometimes…bribes… </p>
<p>That is what is happening, right?</p>
<p>I think like the Claude Rains character…Captain Louis Renault in Casablanca. “I’m shocked. Shocked. To find out there is bribery going on here by some of the wealthiest families in the world. Do you mean our tax structure wasn’t handed down by god? Our tax structure wasn’t chosen because it is the best system for the economy? It is bought and sold and then decided in backrooms? And then the tax structure is sold by paid talking heads that can’t add 2 +2?”</p>
<p>And I guess it is not acceptable for a family that makes $25,000 a year to not pay “income tax”…but it is acceptable for a family with $5 billion or $10 billion to not pay “any tax” at all on that wealth…</p>
<p>LOL…</p>
<p>One of the primary means by which the rich stay rich is by using other people’s money (known as OPM) to invest. An example: entrepreneur starts a company, sells stock in it to the public (yes, he’s worked hard), retaining 25% of the company. His share is now worth $50M. Now, he puts that stock up as collateral for loans and uses that money to make investments. Over time, his investments are successful, and he uses those investments for loans for more investment money. His stock increases in value as his employees work hard, and when he dies, it is worth $200M. That $200M has never been taxed. Without an estate tax, it will not be, unless his heirs sell the stock–and why would they? They, too, can borrow against it.</p>
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<p>Is it possible, that taken to its logical conclusion, this sentiment leads to a complete breakdown of society? If laws and a bad economy disadvantage the masses and they decide to take care of their own families? Every man for himself? IMO you only get to live like you are describing as long as everyone else cooperates in your lifestyle. I <em>think</em> this is what dstark was talking about yesterday when he said “society” decides what you get to own.</p>
<p>I think maybe this is about something called Social Contract.</p>
<p>I"m not a huge fan of the “life isn’t fair, suck it up.” mentality.</p>
<p>My family has been incredibly fortunate. We are healthy. We were born with a lot of energy and some intellect and we tend to be pretty attractive. We were born in the US, which is nice if you’re a woman or a man. We weren’t born in communist russia or cuba, and we’ve been able to go to college and get an education, even my oldest daughter, who, with her dyslexia probably would have been tracked vocational in Europe since she didn’t start coming into her own academically until high school.</p>
<p>We’ve lived in a place where crime is uncommon and war is fought on other people’s land.</p>
<p>We do pay high taxes, but it’s nothing compared to all the other things we could have experienced this lifetime. There are so many variations on the human condition that to believe you haven’t been fortunate just to be in a place with freedom to own land is kind of silly, imho.</p>
<p>All that said, I don’t like class warfare and I know that it isn’t going to be income tax which solves the jobs and government corruption issues we have in the US. It’s one of those situations where those in power have us focused, as usual, on the “wrong” thing-- income tax-- and this allows them to continue to be more and more “hardworking.” ;)</p>
<p>To be clear, there’s no way my taxes are going down under any proposed scenario and I’m okay with that, but focus on what really needs to be done. I’m fine with paying higher taxes, but it’s not going to create any jobs.</p>
<p>Taxes are fundamental…geez…</p>
<p>Why do you think these billionaires are playing the games they play?</p>
<p>You told me before…your husband said…“turn ordinary income into capital gains”</p>
<p>I sincerely believe that until we tax capital gains at the same rate at which we tax “work” income, ( which is the same thing in the finance world), we will not solve this problem, at all. </p>
<p>Is that what you mean? I’ve always said to lower income tax and raise the captial gains rate.</p>
<p>I can’t comprehend billions. If we collected some sort of reasonable estate taxes would this be enough money to take care of SS and medicare concerns?</p>
<p>Poetgrl, We could do that…</p>
<p>Taxes help decide…where capital is allocated…which industries do well…which firms do well…which groups of people do well…which individuals do well…</p>
<p>Crony capitalism and our tax structure go hand in hand…</p>
<p>I don’t disagree with that Dstark. It is why I continue to want to tarrif the products of those who offshore manufacturing jobs.</p>
<p>Instead of putting those profits from shipping the jobs off in the pockets of those who made that decision.</p>
<p>When thirty of the most profitable corporations in the US pay no tax at all due to keeping their offshore profits offshore, and those same individuals, Immelt, for example, are involved in creating government policy? Houston, we have a problem</p>
<p>The top of the 1% aren’t going to be hit by income tax increases or estate tax increases, if that is your aim. Not unless we change the way’ we tax, which they don’t want.</p>
<p>So, we say, “taxing millionaires and billionaires” but saying doesnt make it so. The way we tax has to be changed, not the rate.</p>
<p>The rates can be changed too poetgrl…</p>
<p>Alh…I’m not sure if the estate tax pay can for the SS shortfall…</p>
<p>It would depend on what the estate tax is…</p>
<p>I don’t think it is necessary for the estate tax to cover all of the SS shortfall…</p>
<p>First the shortfall in SS can be remedied in many ways…</p>
<p>I don’t think it is necessary for the estate tax to cover all of the SS shortfall…</p>
<p>SS is not a huge problem…</p>
<p>Here…is some info…on the estate tax…I would like to have a little more updated info…but these are estimates anyway…</p>
<p>[Estate</a> Tax Reform Could Raise Much-Needed Revenue: Some Reform Options with Low Tax Rates Raise Very Little Revenue — Center on Budget and Policy Priorities](<a href=“http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1223]Estate”>http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=1223)</p>
<p>[Ezra</a> Klein - The Social Security shortfall in one graph](<a href=“http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/the_social_security_shortfall.html]Ezra”>http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2010/11/the_social_security_shortfall.html)</p>
<p>okay - thanks - just a distraction?</p>
<p>edit: removed link maybe too political</p>
<p>I am just trying to state some facts…and state some of my opinions based on these facts…</p>
<p>I am not expecting things to change because of what I write here…</p>
<p>If an opinion or two changes because of what I write…that would be nice…</p>
<p>Even if an opinion doesn’t change…if people just think about what I wrote…that’s fine…</p>
<p>If people put me on the ignore button…that is fine too…</p>
<p>And I like to read what others write…I like to read what people think…</p>