<p>Must be lots of illegal multi-family houses in New Jersey, 'cause that’s what the median family earns. To be fair, the median family income in New Jersey is actually $77k, significantly higher than in the NYC area.</p>
<p>If the corporate socialists have their way, we will all be living like that pretty soon. (actually, pretty good from an ecological perspective. :rolleyes:)</p>
<p>So, if someone has more than they need, yes, lets call them crazy, and lets use the Robinhood approach and completely destroy the middle class! Great idea, indeed!</p>
<p>Oh, and we certainly do not have the cabin.</p>
<p>sueinphilly - yes, I agree. But money itself is fungible: wether it’s last year’s earnings or today’s, it’s still 80K pre-tax that will be spent. </p>
<p>And your point that the bread and milk cost the same for both families is exactly what I’m talking about: discretionary income. We are thinking in terms of algebraic differences between the 40 - 250K earners, while in fact the difference is geometric between those who make 40 - 250K, vs those who make 1mm or more. </p>
<p>Can we as a society even comprehend people making 3 billion a year? Does anyone truly make a contribution in business that deserves that kind of money? I think it’s ridiculous. </p>
<p>And while we’re discussing whether the person making 200K is really well off versus their neighbor two block away making 54K, we see CEO’s failing, with major poor business decisions, being fired and paid millions and millions of dollars just to get them to go away. Talk about stupidity. There is something major league wrong with a business model that pays millions to CEO’s who fail.</p>
<p>Any evidence of a “bimodal” distribution in places like NYC and SF, with little “middleclass”? Where does one find these figures?</p>
<p>Hayden - half right - you wrote vs. those who make $1mm “or more”.</p>
<p>On average, the family making $250k will have, on average 32 times the assets of the family making 50k. The family making $1m will only have, on average, 16x the assets of one making $250k. In other words, as already noted, they have more in common. They may live in the same neighborhoods, drive similar cars, go to the same beauty parlors, etc.</p>
<p>As Oldfort well noted, the family making $50k is more likely living in illegal multi-family homes.</p>
<p>Mini… where do you find this stuff?</p>
<p>But mini, you’re not taking into account age/status, and I don’t think your economic model is giving you this breakdown. For instance, if you’re in your first year out of college, renting an apartment, and earning $40K, you’re probably feeling top of the world. If you’re a family of 4, with the parents in their 40’s, we’re talking serious financial concerns everyday.</p>
<p>Yet if you look at only the incomes, these two would figure equally.</p>
<p>In the same grocery store, yes, same school, maybe, and maybe not. Many are in prep schools. As far as groceries, might be the same store, but definitely we are not buying the same products. I don’t buy high end stuff regularly (no lobster here), and I watch for sales, and use coupons. I also shop in multiple stores to save a dollar (want it to stretch 10 different ways). Yep, I look at my receipt.</p>
<p>Wearing the same designers, rubbing shoulders in the same country club (or any country club), kids have their own cars, European vacations, have my own movie theatre in my home too, sending my kids to the same summer camps, or camp at all, skiing in Vale (or skiing 20 minutes away from home)? The answer is no. We have little in common with those making a million plus/year.</p>
<p>If you are a college educated family you are not comparing yourself to that bottom economic level at all but to other people with similar education or better. The college educated middle class. That’s a much higher number than the median income–probably around $100,000 and up in most urban areas. If you are that group earning $150k-$200k in a major city you feel pretty average–middle class.</p>
<p>Does anyone know what the median family income is for a family that includes a couple of minor children? (In other words, can we please leave the single guy with no kids–no braces, no eyeglasses, no weekly allergy shots, etc.) out of the picture? I just think the oft-quoted “median household income” is too vague, and includes too many different kinds of households (including a very large number of one-person households), to be of much practical use unless it is qualified.</p>
<p>Oh, and I meant Vail, but too late to edit my post.</p>
<p>barrons,</p>
<p>I don’t expect to exceed an individual income of $60-75K throughout my lifetime. I suspect that I’ll never be part of the Gibson-middle class, but such is my lot. Still, I fully expect to live a fairly fulfilling life, even if I don’t get a four car garage and three SUVs that get less MPG than an M1A1 Abrams. </p>
<p>I think part of it is the issue of American expectations of what an individual “needs” to be happy. Scale it down, live like a Japanese, and all of a sudden owning even a Civic seems so… great!</p>
<p>bulletandpima,</p>
<p>Referring back to your earlier commuting costs, were you estimating the cost of one or two commuters? With one it seems a bit high. Two seems a bit low. Just curious.</p>
<p>I was not making value judgments. Just saying what would be average-it’s a number and numbers are just facts. Living the simple life is a value judgment putting yourself above the choices of others. Lots of guys near Detroit made good livings buildings those SUVs. Tell them to buy a Civic–and duck…</p>
<p>barrons,</p>
<p>Sure. But I think that the problem is that “average” in NYC is not “average” in Topeka. That’s the problem with saying that $XXX dollars a year makes you “average.”</p>
<p>I’m happier living in NYC or LA in a smaller space and going to the Met than having an M1A1 Excursion with a V20 engine tuned for “guzzle” and a 6 bedroom McMansion. I suspect, also, that a 2 bedroom condo in Manhattan is much more “average” than a home in DUMBO, but you wouldn’t get most Topekans to give up their 2 acre lawns.</p>
<p>Midmo - The median income for a family of four in New Jersey in 2006 (it could include two parents and two children, or one parent and three children - complete with braces, allergy shots, etc. )was $78k, about five hundred dollars more than the overall median family income. Whether they can afford braces, allergy shots, or a car that works is another issue entirely. (I should note that my own family income is well lower than that, but the cost of my mortgage is barely a multiple of my health club membership, I drive a 1988 Maxima without a heating coil, and the cost of health care for me and my wife over the past 16 months - paid for by my excellent single-payor health plan - is more than my salary for the past 20 years. I am very thankful for what I have, and also thankful I don’t live in New Jersey, though my older d. will be.)</p>
<p>Again, it is likely that most of the 25% or so of kids who don’t graduate from high school come from this group or below. The majority of kids at or below the median income don’t go to college, and a plurality of those who do go to community colleges, often at night.</p>
<p>They have very, very little in common with $200k families. Now mind you, this is NOT the bottom economic group - this is the middle.</p>
<p>Shrinkrap, the census data by state is all posted on-line. (I’m not currently at a computer where I can easily put in links.)</p>
<p>I think the problem is that it’s futile to try to draw a dividing line between “middle class” and “rich.” “Middle class” is more of an idea of a kind of life-style than it really is an income level. I am quite confident that many people earning $500,000 a year or even more consider themselves to be middle class, even though obviously they earn much more than the vast majority of Americans. They consider themselves middle class, though, because they work for a living, are not from families of inherited wealth, and don’t spend as much on luxuries as people with more money than they do. In other words, people with BMWs consider themselves middle class because they don’t have Rolls-Royces. At the other end of the spectrum, people who are earning $40,000 will consider themselves to be middle class if they have a house to live in (even rented), a car, and a TV. They will consider people who don’t have those things to be poor. (Note: there is no “working class” in America except for the working poor.)</p>
<p>^^^ (Choking in disbelief) Anyone who makes $500k a year and considers himself middle class is CLEARLY out of touch with reality.</p>
<p>I absolutely agree with Hunt. When someone earning 500,000 compares themselves to someone living in a 5 million dollar mansion, and who owns a private airplane, they feel middle class. When someone earning 40,000 compares themselves to someone who is homeless, and cannot provide basic needs like food and shelter for their family, they feel middle class and very blessed.</p>
<p>There is definitely too much difference of perspective here. I think what would be more accurate, would be to determine how much you have leftover AFTER Rent/mortgage, utilities, taxes, etc… I know that is too difficult for most to compute. Most definitely a family making 40K a year can feel middle class compared to someone who has less or is homeless. I’m sure that my disposable, after tax, after mandatory expenses, etc… is more than the person who makes 200K in Manhattan, but that isn’t all that accurate. I’ve lived in Manhattan; and 200K isn’t all that much. However; $200K in Austin Tx, Albuquerque NM, Biloxi MS, and Augusta GA are all different.</p>
<p>In my experience- areas that are more expensive to live also are more desirable. More places for recreation, better selection of shopping/medical care, better funding for parks, libraries and schools.
Areas that are cheaper to live, look it. They might not even have a public school in the area, the library is a bookmobile & high malpractice ins medical specialities are 60 miles away.</p>
<p>Now if you want to live off the grid, are prepared to dig your own well, are paranoid about having computer records so pay cash for every thing & are going to grow your own food, you probably don’t care if there are no ob/gyns in the area, and you can’t get service for your Travelall.</p>
<p>What I have left over after paying our living expenses and what someone who lives in Oroville- may be the same, but there are a whole host of reasons why I live in the city instead- just as there are reasons why those people who are paying $2,000 a month to rent a studio in SF are doing that, instead of paying that much for a 5 bedroom in Redlands</p>