<p>I read an interesting article that controlled for transportation costs of “3 car families” in the 'burbs, and found that the same family living in the city either spends the same or less overall on housing and transportation combined, but gains in time spent not driving to work/school.</p>
<p>That’s sounds good, but not quite accurate. There are a lot of places that are ON THE GRID where you have just about everything you can get in the large urban cities. Just not the cost. Plus, what little you might gain in the big city, is sometimes offset with crime and other unlikeable things. A great example is Fort Collins, Colorado. $200,000 will definitely go a long way there. 120,000 people but with everything you could imagine; including one of the best ranked universities in the country; recreation; arts; etc…</p>
<p>I lived in the Manhattan area growing up. I love it there. One of the best cities I’ve ever been to; and I’ve been to many large cities all over the world. But there is not comparison. Yes, it may be different than living in Del Rio, texas; but there are a lot of places in the country where the culture has as much to offer as New York, LA, Chicago, etc… but without many of the negatives. Of course economically, it’s probably a wash. Someone making $100,000 in one of these areas would be equivalent to someone making $200,000 in the larger cities. And the higher taxes and costs would equalize it anyway.</p>
<p>Actually, crime is not as big of an issue in many big cities as people seem to believe. If you look at the FBI stats, you’re less likely to have a crime committed against you in downtown SD or NYC than you are in many parts of the San Fernando Valley. </p>
<p>Granted, I’ll take the marginal increase in crime living in many cities as the price of being able to live a metropolitan life. I don’t care how much money a city of 120,000 pumps into its museums and opera houses, it ain’t NYC, SF, or LA.</p>
<p>I know a couple who make about 175k- with 3 kids they just paid 300k cash for a foreclosure in Arizona. Their home in Bergen county is worth 1.4 million. All 3 kids went to college- paid by the parents no loans They vacation to Europe or a nice cruise every year. They have 2 nice cars etc.</p>
<p>Fort Collins may have had a food- co-op for 30 years, but how many times has Pearl Jam played there?
I didn’t think so :(</p>
<p>I also have to be within spitting distance of salt water or else I shrivel up. ;)</p>
<p>My point is that “middle class” is a relative term. It’s worth noting that most people we consider “middle class” in the U.S. are quite wealthy by global standards.</p>
<p>emeraldkity4,</p>
<p>Well, if the IGCC is right, just stay in Vegas and wait a few years and voila! Instant seaside property! :p</p>
<p>I must be out of touch but where are all these people with a family income of $40 K? I have a fairly wide range of friends, siblings, etc. that make up my experience. They are not all doctors or lawyers – included are high-school teachers, electricians, nurses, federal employees, policemen, and auto workers. They are all way above the $40k figure. </p>
<p>How many of those at or around $40k graduated from high school? College or trade school? I know anyone can go though some bad luck but how many of these people are just unprepared for life? I would think all the parents on CC can understand this. We all see kids who don’t attend class, get drunk in the mornings before a test, and either barely graduate or don’t at all. They are having a great time when most of the others are working very hard and making sacrifices to get a good education. If this is the group we are talking about then why should we be concerned if they have to “struggle” now.</p>
<p>hmmm; Well, as long as we know that Pearl Jam is the standard on whether or not a town or city is considered the “Boonies” or not. I guess people like Bon Jovi, matchbox 20, Def leppard, and hundreds of others just aren’t good enough.</p>
<p>I guess people like Bon Jovi, matchbox 20, Def leppard, and hundreds of others just aren’t good enough.
nope ;)</p>
<p>-*I must be out of touch but where are all these people with a family income of $40 K? *</p>
<p>There were many years when without overtime,( when D began college) we made before taxes $47,000. That is $22 an hour, well above minimum wage.
We also live in a high expense area,a gallon of gas is currently $3.57, public transportation is shoddy, & a gallon of milk is well over $5.</p>
<p>Many people with engineering/business degrees have gotten laid off when their companies relocated/or were gobbled up and are now selling insurance or working at Home Depot. Pretty hard to find a job when you are 55 and you had been making $80K.</p>
<p>Even my H couldn’t find a job for almost two years, after his company laid him off and all but folded when our oldest was young. None of the companies that were even close to his field, could pay him what he had been making & were " sorry- but they were afraid that as soon as his original company started up again, he would leave".
Twenty years later, they still haven’t reached their former size.</p>
<p>The US has not been the place our parents knew for decades. You do not find workers in the same job for thirty years retiring with a pension.
What you do find are retired workers, working as bagboys to supplement their retirement.
[Average</a> Seattle worker can’t afford to live here](<a href=“http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/309914_affordable02.html]Average”>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/309914_affordable02.html)</p>
<p>Whenever I went to pick up DD from her classmate’s house, I knew I am in the low middle class. My whole house could easily fit into one of the garages.</p>
<p>well some people do have more house than they need.
Our house is under 1000 sq ft, and D had a friend whose home on the water was 8000 sq ft with EIGHT bathrooms and five bedrooms for four people.
I was jealous for one of their bathrooms- we had four people and ONE bathroom. 
Cool house though, it looked like a greek village on the side of a hill.</p>
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<p>How do you know if their money comes soley from job earnings? How do you know if one or both is the recipient of monthly income through a family business, family inheritance, whether they were left money from their rich aunt Mary (or middle class aunt Mary for that matter)? Nobody really knows another family’s finances to judge. JMO.</p>
<p>A while ago in the NY Times there was an article about “middle class” millionaires - assets between 1M - 10M. Although this may sound like a lot of money to some, it doesn’t afford you much if you’re in the few million asset regime - particularly nearing retirement. Assuming a max drawdown of 4% per year, its 40k a year - hardly a lot to live on.</p>
<p>Haven’t gotten too far in this thread, but must respond already. I feel like I’m living in some kind of parallel world to many of the posters here.</p>
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<p>Couldn’t disagree more. I’ve never had a 200K income (right now our family’s is half that), and I am infinitely more stable than a family living on 40K in my area. After basic stability, it’s all about your toys.</p>
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<p>Again, couldn’t disagree more. I live in NJ, and I’m doin’ just fine on just over half that. Sheesh, what kinda lifestyle do you all think you need???</p>
<p>garland,</p>
<p>Didn’t you know that if you aren’t living in Mantoloking, you’re in poverty?</p>
<p>Trufax.</p>
<p>Oh, and the houses in my neighborhood sell in low 200’s to 300’s, and going down. We’ll sell ya ours for 200k, as is. See, you *can *afford NJ!</p>
<p>Edit: LOL, UCLari. Yes, there really are truly “middle class” neighborhoods in NJ, where people sometimes live on, really! just five figure incomes.</p>
<p>northeatmom - I know them well enough to know their finances. No trust funds. No significant inheritance etc. They worked, kept debt under control. traded up at the right time for housing- 4 house sales and made financial decisions on need not want. Using criteria of need not want goes a long way towards increasing wealth. I want a large SUV but I really need a Corolla- it is all about choices. I have seen it in my own family some with significantly higher incomes do not save as much as others. 175k is still enough to live a very nice lifestyle- I make about 60% of that and I live fine.</p>
<p>The debate over where the middle class starts and ends misses the larger issue: [federal</a> revenues are actually up…way up since 1990](<a href=“http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-R2-Federal-Government-Tax-Revenue.html]federal”>http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-R2-Federal-Government-Tax-Revenue.html). In 1990 federal revenue was about 1.5 trillion. In 2008 revenues are expected to be $2.5 trillion. </p>
<p>What’s counterintuitive is that [revenue</a> went up when tax rates went down in 2003](<a href=“http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-R3-Corporate-Income-Tax-Cuts-Boost.html]revenue”>http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-R3-Corporate-Income-Tax-Cuts-Boost.html). Moreover, revenues as a % of GDP has [stayed</a> constant as rates went down](<a href=“http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-T1-Income-Tax-Receipts-Stay-Constant.html]stayed”>http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-T1-Income-Tax-Receipts-Stay-Constant.html).</p>
<p>$2.5 trillion is more than enough money, if we just spend it appropriately, cut wasteful spending, prioritize and reform entitlements.</p>
<p>Iraq war eats into that a bit
[Iraq</a> war cost estimates run into the trillions | csmonitor.com](<a href=“http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0310/p16s01-wmgn.html]Iraq”>Iraq war cost estimates run into the trillions - CSMonitor.com)</p>