Tampa beat New Orleans in Super Dome yesterday…not Miami. Please don’t anyone get me more confused than I already am. Buc QB Winston got a running and a passing TD, and the Buc defense yesterday played way better than last week against Tennessee.
Wins are a function of the team though, and QBs don’t play defense or special teams. Nor do they coach. (They are semi-coaches on offense, but they don’t make the big calls. A great coach really helps the success of the team.)
Many are especially fond of using Super Bowl wins as a measuring stick for ranking QBs; while I think SB success could be used to cast the deciding vote between two equally productive/talented QBs, the SB should not be the main variable in judging a QB.
Case in point:
Dan Marino, with a good defense, would have won at least one super bowl probably; meanwhile, average QBs like Dilfer and Brad Johnson won a Super Bowl each. Neither Dilfer, nor Johnson, were qualified to carry Dan Marino’s jock. In no sane galaxy could anyone consider those two to be better than Dan Marino. the “Super Bowl means greatness” argument only really works with otherwise great QBs – ya gotta have the stats, IMO.
In, say, 2025… the pantheon will likely include Unitas, Montana, Brady, Rodgers, Peyton Manning, Favre, Elway and Marino. Maybe Brees, maybe Roethlisberger, and the other Manning. And who knows… maybe another great QB will come along between now and then and everyone will talk about him in 2020 like we talk about Rodgers now.
Sorry about the TB thing: I actually saw a bunch of that game and marveled at 2 things. First, Winston moved much better than in college and, second, NO was awful. I think I heard they’ve lost 8 straight home games. I should have remembered Miami losing to Jacksonville because the Jags come to NE next Sunday.
I don’t doubt that Rodgers is very talented. I merely point out he’s a long way from best ever: he lacks in wins, in Super Bowls (wins and appearances), his road record isn’t great (big advantage playing at Lambeau). I’m not comparing him to Kerry Collins or Donovan McNabb, just noting that as of now he’s behind 50 guys in wins. Sure he can win more games but let’s see him do that first.
I note that by midseason Peyton will pass Favre for most wins ever. Currently at 181 versus 186. That’s a big deal. I expect he wants to get to 200 minimum, which he could reach next year, before hanging them up. Unless Brady gets hurt, he’ll end up over 200 because he’s at 162 now. If you add in playoffs, the numbers for all time wins - given that Brady has the most playoff wins with 21 (Montana 2nd with 16) for a total of 183 - Favre has 199 and Manning has 192. Rodgers has 6 playoff wins, which is tied for 25th with Drew Brees. He needs to improve on that.
As a note, Brady actually answered a question in his Monday AM Boston radio chat. (I heard the soundbite.) When asked if he always knows what to do pre-snap, what the defense is doing pre-snap, he admitted he does, that it’s pretty rare for him to be wrong. He immediately added he makes mistakes but that’s about as close as he’ll get to saying something real about his game.
Talking about QB’s and rating them is difficult, for a lot of reasons. There is no doubt that Rogers has been one of the top quarterbacks of his generation, but how do you decide greatness? As someone said, Football is team sport and I can name quarterbacks who were great, who played on crap teams (Sonny Jorgenson comes to mind, great qb, crappy teams). If you look at Roger’s total QB ratings, you will see he is elite…but then, what about the other stats?Wins are great, but Rogers has started fewer games than the others. Superbowl wins? Not necessarily a determinant, given that Peyton Manning won 1 of them, whereas his brother, who is not by far as good a QB by most measures, won 2 of them. Need I mention that Kurt warner won a couple, and based on what we usually say about quarterbacks, he was a good one? Rogers hasn’t necessarily had great teams yet he wins, in large part because GB seems to be an injury magnet, I remember one year where they literally had some ridiculous percent of their team out injured, yet they still won. Their defense has been great some years, crappy the others, their O line hasn’t always been great, but he has a high winning percentage. If Green Bay has been successful, a lot of it has been having Rogers, I think the way to look at it is how much worse they would be without him.
Brady is an interesting one, my mind changed about him. With the earlier superbowl victories, he was a product of the NE system, they had a stellar defense and he didn’t need to be great…but then after the first couple, NE went totally against type and had pretty mediocre defenses, and suddenly Brady starts putting up huge number of points, and more importantly, NE with the way they let players go, with a variety of targets. Leaving out the Gronk (proof that giants really existed), he has worked with all kinds of receivers and backs, welker went, edelman came in, they work with a cast of characters, often minor to mediocre, and he makes it work.
Peyton Manning IMO might be the greatest of all time, Joe Montana (who I have a lot of respect for, and was a great one) was working in Bill Walsh’s offense, with a great defense along with the offense, had Jerry Rice and other great targets, so the Superbowl wins were not entirely him. Manning has one to his credit, but if you look at his Indianapolis teams, you can see just how much their success was based on him, they didn’t have Superbowl caliber teams, their defense was mediocre, yet they won, they didn’t have anyone near Jerry Rice (Wayne was extremely talented, Garcon was good). More importantly, Manning was not a product of the system, he was it, under Tom Moore Peyton in effect was the OC (no offense meant to Tom Moore, who is a brilliant offensive coordinator, rather that he and Manning worked out their strategy, then Manning pretty much called his own game out there). Manning is a throwback to older QB eras IMO, and because of that I think he seriously can be called one of the greats, if not the greatest.
Rothlesberger is a great QB, and has won superbowls, but his magic is in taking crap and making something with it, plus he also had the advantage most of his time with great defenses, and also great personnel (great O line, great running backs, receivers, TE’s). I don’t think Rothlesberger can do what Manning did, take it all on himself and win, if you look at pittsburgh this year, their D is pretty mediocre, and I think it is going to hamper what Ben can do.
On the other hand, Bradshaw won 4 superbowls with the Steelers, and he was not a brilliant QB, he isn’t Trent Dilfur, but he also wasn’t a brilliant QB the way Brady or Manning or Montana were. But look at the teams he had, a brilliant defense, and receivers who weren’t human, they were gazelles crossed with circus acrobats, if Bradshaw got the ball near them, forget it (only Calvin Johnson and maybe Beckham approach what those guys did; Gronkowski on the other hand, well, hard to say what he is lol).
The other thing is with QB’s today, that in some many ways they are managed. Johnny Unitas record or stats doesn’t show necessarily what he did, plus keep in mind QB’s like him played in a totally different era. QB’s today have a lot more time (things the O line can do today were penalties back then, and defenders did things that would get them game misconducts today). The record for sacks (in a 12 game season I believe) was the old raiders, and it was like 66 1/2 sacks, you won’t see anywhere near that today, so the QB’s back then had less time and protection. Unitas was calling his own game, and that man could read a defense and check down quicker and better than anyone today, with maybe the exception of Manning. People point out to his completion percentage or yards, but that doesn’t mean that much, today QB’s have 16 games, plus multiple rounds of playoffs, to put up those stats , and if you compare his completion percentage to that of his contemporaries, he shined. Plus the other thing is take a look at yards per pass, a lot of the completion percentages you see today are dink and dunks, the west coast, rapid fire short passes, that boost those percentages, back then they didn’t do as much as that, lot more were long passes. Russell Wilson looks great with a high percentage completion, but his yards per pass in the air are all these 10 yrd or so passes, same is true for a lot of other qb’s.
I don’t think Rogers is the best QB in the game right now, but I will tell you that he is the kind of QB that if you give him a good team, will make it shine, he as done that in GB. I think Manning and Brady have proven they can take teams that are not very good on paper and make them fly (they are the anti of a Trent Dilfur), but Rogers IMO is not far behind. Put it this way, with the Jets defense that they had during the first years of Rex Ryan and the O line, if Rogers were there they would have won 2-3 superbowls, if we didn’t have losers like Sanchez and then Geno Smith, and there are other teams I can name that had Rogers played there, they likely would be taking Superbowls (KC comes to mind, possibly the Texans, and forget Dallas, put Rogers there, they would have several over the past X years; Romo is a good QB, but he isn’t Rogers).
The Seahawks were a disaster area and I love Rodgers’ comment. I wish WIlson would leave God out of it and just play football like he’s been payed to do. I just about lost it when he said that he thought the Superbowl interception was part of God’s plan. Not only does that run counter to my theological understanding RE God and minute to minute direct interference in sporting events but it’s just not taking responsibility for the play on the field.
I heard a retired CB this am say that Rodgers has a quicker release than almost anybody making it difficult to close on his passes. You think you have the route and see the field and everything is covered but the ball is on you faster than most other QBs.
@saintfan:
Quick release was the secret to a lot of great QB’s, Namath and Unitas had it, Marino had it, Rogers definitely has it (so did Breeze) and it is huge, doesn’t allow D’s time to adjust, and gets them out of trouble, D’s can’t get to them before they throw.
As far as Wilson invoking God, I have to admit I am getting tired of that, the people pointing to the sky, the claims of “God wanted us to win” or “God ordained us to lose”, as if somehow what the players do or don’t do doesn’t matter. I could argue it was the old predestination crap, but the reality is it is simply trying to make it seem like they are never at fault. Plus to be honest I think it is pretty trivial theology to claim that God or Jesus cares about a sports game (okay, being a long time Jets fan, I have wondered about the Devil being involved, but that is difference, no team as bizarre, star crossed, fouled up, etc, could be the work of a benign deity, even the Deists would shake their heads at the Jets lol). It is one thing to appreciate the gifts someone has been given or appreciate the blessings those brought, but this having to thank Jesus for a 5 yard gain or whatever, it makes me cringe, because it trivializes something that should mean more than that.
Yes - one thing to attribute your hard work or perseverance to faith or whatever, but Wilson takes it WAY too far IMO.
Maybe God IS rooting for the Jets . . .
I was just happy to see my Packers bounce back after that stinker of a 3rd quarter. I’m still not sold on their defense, but the receiving corps is stepping up well so far through 2 games. Hopefully Lacy and Adams ankle injuries won’t be lingering issues.
For the Seahawk fans, have no fear…nothing is better for getting back on track than having the hapless Bears come to town. Though they’ll have to deal with the mighty Jimmy Clausen now that Jay Gutless…er, Cutler…is out again.
Or maybe God is just rooting for Darelle Revis.
Quick release: Marino got rid of the ball quickest of all but that’s not the same as a quick passing game. All of the top QB’s throw quickly. Compare Byron Leftwich: his windup took an eternity. (Or Tim Tebow starting his motion down near his thigh and unable to fix that and have the fix stick.) But QB’s can stand there and pat the ball and then release quickly. Drew Bledsoe threw for 44k yards and he was notorious in NE for standing in the pocket tapping the ball (it’s a technique for timing the play). Roethlisberger has a lightning fast release but he stands there forever. Rodgers runs around. Brees runs around. Not a quick passing game. When GB moved the ball against Seattle, they changed to a quick passing game, which is quick reads. Even Buffalo used a quick passing game against NE: the difference is their QB wasn’t reading the defense and deciding what to do (pre or post snap) but was executing the called play that said “drop back 3 steps, throw to x”. If you go back to the original West Coast offense, on each step back the QB was supposed to do a read so he would reach the set point and be ready to throw to that guy. It’s quick and it diminishes the ability of the defense to read the QB’s eyes as he locks in.
I can see Indy having a long season except against teams too stupid or too weak to beat up on them. Luck is tough. A lot of his teammates on both sides are lacking. An example: on Revis’ INT, the WR did nothing when he was supposed to break in to the sideline and back to the QB. It’s his job to get in front of the DB. Luck should not have thrown the pass, which is his fault, but it’s pretty basic route running that you don’t break so the DB is in perfect underneath position; you go upfield to create separation or you fight your way back. I didn’t watch the throw over and over but I know that it’s up to the receivers to get actually open, not “open but with a guy standing just out of the QB’s line of vision to you”. And I admit that if Tyrod Taylor threw the ball, I’d say “bad choice” but I’ve seen enough of Luck to assume he may have been duped by a bad route.
The radio brought this up and I agree with it: why do so many teams bring in people who don’t fit what they do. I mentioned during the offseason that Jimmy Graham isn’t a blocker. I don’t know if that hurts Seattle’s run game but they are still a running team first and Graham is a the kind of TE you line up in a 4 or 5 wide. Watching DeMarco Murray was painful: the Phi offense, to the extent there may be one, needs guys like LeSean McCoy. It’s only 2 games in and things likely will change. I have more faith in Pete Carroll than in Chip Kelly.
Funny: turns out the Ravens used an (illegal?) man eligible formation against the Raiders. [url=<a href=“https://twitter.com/patsfb/status/646071496629178368/photo/1%5DHere.%5B/url”>https://twitter.com/patsfb/status/646071496629178368/photo/1]Here.[/url]
God doesn’t root for Revis, he stays on Revis Island lol. My son pointed out something interesting, that Bowles was basically using the same kind of blitzing strategy Ryan did, but because the Jets actually have good personnel in the secondary (may John Idzik die a football death of too many paper cuts from pushing paper), it actually works. Indianapolis looked terrible, if the Jets had more than an okay offense that they had to coddle, the score would likely have been 40+.
They like to flood the A gaps – those are the gaps between the center and the guards – and they’ll blitz LBs and secondary; usually the LBs blitz immediately, while a blitzing safety or corner has a bit more of a delayed effect. Luck has been having a lot of trouble dealing with pressure, which surprises me, since he can move. Maybe he’s not spotting the blitz pre-snap or reading the resulting openings in the D once the play is on.
The new rule makes it illegal for an offensive player wearing an eligible number (between 1 and 49, or 80 to 89) to report as ineligible and line up outside the tackle box.
In that pic its the right tackle who is lined up outside the box, and since he is not wearing an eligible number there is theoretically no deception.
Given how the Ravens whined about it though, it is pretty hypocritical they are using a variation of it.
The Eagles turned over their o-line and lost a ton of experience. It’s hard for any back when the defense is getting penetration and are in the backfield along with the back. Murray benefited from the Cowboys’ league-best o-line last year, now with a below-average line he hasn’t done much so far.
It was shocking to me how little Jimmy Graham was used in the Seattle/GB game. It’s like they couldn’t figure out what to do with him.
Murray is best at running between-the-tackle dives, counters, isolations and draws. These plays allow him to get north-south quickly so he can charge the hole. He is like Dickerson and Adrian Peterson that way. Off-tackle runs and sweeps are not as well suited to him because he must first get outside to the lane, and he is not very effective running parallel to the line of scrimmage. So running a stretch play or a counter sweep out of the shotgun set, as is common in Kelly’s offense, is a misallocation of his talent.
Thanks for the info about the rule. I only remember they changed something to mollify the complainers. The play worked: the Ravens lined up a TE on the other side and no one covered him at all as the ineligible tackle backed up from the line of scrimmage. TD! I don’t think this is hypocritical by the Ravens; it’s football and you use the rules for an advantage. Whining about being out-thought is bush league.
I re-watched Luck’s game and now I’m not sure what the heck he was doing on the last INT to Revis. The Jets have the ability to rush the passer and I think more and more that Indy’s stats are highly informed by their division - which I think hurt the Peyton Colts in the playoffs. I gather they’re undefeated against their division but only 10-12 against the rest of the league.
From Miami Herald - writer Adam Beasley - compressed for readability:
The same could be said for the Dolphins’ defense, which is somehow worse with Ndamukong Suh than it was without him in 2014. A big reason why: Suh, who for the second straight week was a nonfactor, strayed from Kevin Coyle’s script. The Miami Herald has learned that Suh freelanced at times Sunday, creating confusion on the defense. By taking matters into his own hands, the Dolphins’ $114 million man took a bad situation and made it worse. “I couldn’t tell you,” Suh said, when asked to explain his uninspired play. “At the end of the day, we have to go back to the drawing board and figure out what we want to run so guys can make plays and go from there.”
And I saw this from Gregg Easterbrook: “The Eagles have 70 yards rushing this season. DeMarco Murray has carried 21 times for 11 yards.”
Here’s an interesting article on Murray. It makes the case that when a back has more than 370 touches in one season, it basically ruins their career (with the exception of Eric Dickerson).
Sad comment on the state of the Eagles’ o-line:
[DeMarco Murray Living Up to the Curse of 370 with the Philadelphia Eagles](DeMarco Murray Living Up to the Curse of 370 with the Philadelphia Eagles | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report)
Yep – the O line makes all the difference in the world.
Except maybe in Barry Sanders’ case – his lines in Detroit were pretty average (with Lomas Brown as an exception…), but he managed to have an incredible career.
Dallas’ O line has been outstanding now for a few years. I’m not sure we’ll be seeing a line as good as the mid-90s Cowboys anytime soon, but that line is opening holes these days like the '90s lines did for Emmitt Smith.