aren't girls between 14 & 17 technically children?

Parent Cafe
81

<p>

</p>

<p>You are again making an invalid comparison. The reason it is invalid is because this is not a neighborhood. It is a compound that is controlled by the leaders of a religious sect. When all kinds of teenage girls are getting abused sexually in a normal neighborhood, you remove them individually; but when all kinds of teenage girls are getting abused in a compound controlled by a clear leadership - especially when that leadership openly holds the sexual abuse in question to be a part of the religious doctrine to which they subscribe - it is an entirely different situation, and removing all the children preemptively to prevent further abuse is probably necessary.</p>

<p>Think about it this way: instead of a neighborhood, think of the compound as a single, large household. Better comparison, because the key element here is the homogeneous belief and power of the church leaders. Now, when there’s children being abused in a household, you remove all of the children - even if only a single one is being abused - so that you can figure out exactly what’s going on. And that’s what has happened.</p>

82

<p>Except this is not 1 family. These are individual women with childen who were taken away from them without appropriate investigation or due process. It’s a scandal that defies belief, and I will be very happy when the children are returned to their mothers. What a cruel thing to do to these children. The younger ones have not been reported to be sexually abused. With oversight it would not happen again. However, in foster care, it could.</p>

83

<p>

</p>

<p>The mothers who see absolutely nothing wrong with the rape of 14-year old girls? The mothers who cannot think for themselves, who have been manipulated and intimidated into believing the outside world belongs to Satan? The mothers who do not know they have other options in this world, or who are even given a chance to explore them for themselves and make their own decision? These mothers are emotionally and psychologically stunted - they wouldn’t have a clue how to function in the world if these men didn’t tell them exactly what to do.</p>

84

<p>The state has an obligation to individually evaluate each mother-child unit to see if the child will be safe with the mother. I do not believe that you can remove 400 children overnight from their mothers without this investigation and due process. I think that it is best for these children to be with their mothers, and they can be supervised by state social workers. The women can be interviewed as to their fitness to be mothers. As to finances, there are millions of mothers already who are state-supported. I personally would have no problem with the government supporting and retraining these women. There may be some of the religion’s trust fund money somewhere that could be used.</p>

<p>These are children separated from their mothers abruptly. I think it is wrong, and that this will in retrospect be seen as a cruel fiasco, unless they do find abuse in younger children and this has not surfaced in a credible way. Taking a nursing child away from his or her mother is cruel by any standards, unless there is clear evidence that the child is in immediate danger.</p>

85

<p>“The mothers who cannot think for themselves, who have been manipulated and intimidated into believing the outside world belongs to Satan? The mothers who do not know they have other options in this world, or who are even given a chance to explore them for themselves and make their own decision? These mothers are emotionally and psychologically stunted - they wouldn’t have a clue how to function in the world if these men didn’t tell them exactly what to do.”</p>

<p>Instead of helping them and trying to keep the family unit, what do you suggest? Are you suggesting that they just be destroyed or sent to prison? I personally think that putting the state’s money into retraining these women would be more effective and humane for the children than scattering them out to foster care, where there are often horrendous problems.</p>

86

<p>

</p>

<p>How? Where? Who gets supervised? What about the men still on the compound? Who watches them when the state social workers aren’t around to supervise?</p>

<p>The only way I’d accept any kind of mass reunion is if it happened in the compound, with no men from the sect present (they would have to move out), and basically set the place up as a psychiatric clinic with round the clock supervision until all doubt can be erased that these moms understand what they’ve been a part of and the kids who have been traumatized have been appropriately identified and treated. This would take years.</p>

87

<p>You obviously remove the men.</p>

<p>Here is an interview quoted on abc.com:</p>

<p>"But child welfare experts fear the state’s actions may be worse than whatever might have gone on at the ranch.</p>

<p>“What Texas has done is barbaric,” said Richard Wexler, executive director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform. “The worst thing you can do to these children is separate them from their mothers.”</p>

<p>“Taking a child away is tantamount to pouring salt in an open wound, so basically the position of the Texas Department of Child Protective Services is ‘Pass the salt,’” he told ABCNEWS.com. …</p>

<p>Many child advocates say that even in ordinary circumstances, separation from the mother is the worst-case scenario for the well-being of the child. They say a disproportionate number of foster children end up in jail, psychiatric institutions or homeless shelters.</p>

<p>The national coalition cites an 80 percent failure rate in a foster care, with some studies showing abuse in up to one-third of all foster homes. “It’s a pernicious system that churns out the walking wounded,” said Wexler. “Some of these kids are likely to be abused again.”</p>

<p>“It’s an enormous trauma to these children,” he said. “The mothers may have been abused themselves, and when you take the child, the child loses what he or she thinks is her sole lifeline, the only thing that is loving and familiar.”</p>

<p>The state has charged the polygamous sect of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints with arranged marriages that sometimes pairs older men with underage girls. But Wexler said punishing the mother – a “nonoffending parent” – is a practice that was outlawed as unconstitutional in a federal lawsuit filed in 2002 by battered mothers in New York City.</p>

<p>“One expert after another testified how harmful to the child it is to be taken from the nonoffending mother,” he said. “They should have been treated like refugees, keeping children and mothers together.”</p>

88

<p>“The state has an obligation to individually evaluate each mother-child unit to see if the child will be safe with the mother.”</p>

<hr>

<p>Why do you think this is not happening? 400+ individual hearings (which are occurring) do not happen overnight.</p>

89

<p>ldmom06: I was about to say that.</p>

<p>nameneeded, it is standard practice to remove children from what is suspected to potentially be an abusive environment, even concrete evidence of particular abuse to that child. Once it is determined that the child is not in danger, the child is returned.</p>

<p>This is nothing new, the only thing that’s new is the grand scale.</p>

90

<p>Also, the question that begs an answer…if these moms care so much about being reunited with their children, then why all the lying about names and parentage, refusing to answer questions and even destroying identification bracelets? If nothing nefarious is going on, why not cooperate and get this thing resolved quickly rather than attempt to thwart the authorities at every turn?</p>

91

<p>I have reported many children to Protective Services over the past year. I think that 2 were actually removed and put into relative’s care pending investigation. A child has to have very severe injuries for removal to even be considered. There are many children reported and too few resources for removal to occur. And foster care is very risky. The children can be kept in the home if it was a boyfriend or anoither person accused whom they say will be kept away from the child. Or of course, they give “parenting classes” to the mother and keep the child with her. It takes A LOT to remove a child from a birth mother. These women weren’t even close, by what the press has reported so far.</p>

<p>Unless these young children showed clear signs of physical abuse or neglect, they would never be removed from these mothers. This is a political move that is harming children. They could have kept them together, without the men, and done the investigation. Keeping them in the home and investigating is what normally happens, unless there are signs of severe problems.</p>

92

<p>“Also, the question that begs an answer…if these moms care so much about being reunited with their children, then why all the lying about names and parentage, refusing to answer questions and even destroying identification bracelets? If nothing nefarious is going on, why not cooperate and get this thing resolved quickly rather than attempt to thwart the authorities at every turn?”</p>

<p>If this is true, it must be because they are scared. This is not abuse or neglect. Not a reason to remove the children.</p>

93

<p>nameneeded - The problem with that idea is the intimidation factor. Many of these underage girls are the ‘junior’ wives under the supervision/control of not just men, but older, more ‘senior’ wives. Placing all of the women together ensures any exchange of information with authorities will dry up making a productive investigation impossible.</p>

<p>Btw…what I described is true. If you read local papers/accounts, you will discover that the children have been conditioned to deliberately hide the identity off their parents and their true names. Eyewitness accounts of the adults and children scratching the identification information off bracelets and/or nametags has been published as well.</p>

94

<p>“nameneeded - The problem with that idea is the intimidation factor. Many of these underage girls are the ‘junior’ wives under the supervision/control of not just men, but older, more ‘senior’ wives. Placing all of the women together ensures any exchange of information with authorities will dry up making a productive investigation impossible.”</p>

<p>Can interview children separately. Removing them will only change their stories more becasue they want to be reunited with their families.</p>

<p>The immediate welfare of the children is the most important thing to consider, and the state of Texas blew it on that one. Those children need to be with their mothers and I just hope they will be reunited soon. The men can go away permanently, if they are abusers then this can be the condition of the women keeping their children.</p>

95

<p>It will also come out that the authorities knew very well what was going on in that compound, and that they took no action at all up until this all-out raid. Their failure to take more measured action sooner will be one of the things that judges will point to when the state’s action is ruled improper.</p>

96

<p>Hunt…can’t take a ‘measured’ action or ANY action without a complaint or some other basis for a warrant. </p>

<p>Until now, there has been no legal basis. The members of that community were rarely seen outside the compound and interaction with non-FLDS members of the county was virtually non-existent. The compound members were so wary of outsiders, the women and children hid indoors when small planes flew over the property.</p>

<p>Given this is true, how would any action, measured or not, have been taken without running afoul of the law and constitutional rights? Would you have had the State of Texas enter that compound and investigate based merely on rumors regarding behavior in another state?</p>

97

<p>“Wasn’t Jeffers, the head prophet of this community, convicted of rape last year? Wouldn’t that provide a legal bases to take the kids and arrest the other men?”</p>

<p>What would be the legal basis to take away 400 children?</p>

<p>“These FLDS women that I see in court look very disciplined, meditative, are taking notes. They don’t look scared to me. They look like fighters.”</p>

<p>Yea it’s incredible how mothers fight for their children. The state is acting like these children are OK anywhere. These are their mothers. The state has overstepped its legal authority.</p>

98

<p>Not being an attorney, I’m not sure about the exact charges or what evidence was available or is needed. But if Jeffers was already convicted of rape in this milieu, I don’t understand why it wasn’t pursued more thoroughly at the time of his conviction.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>perhaos more info is " forthcoming"</p>

<p>[Jeffs</a> follower charged with rape of child bride - CNN.com](<a href=“Jeffs follower charged with rape of child bride - CNN.com”>Jeffs follower charged with rape of child bride - CNN.com)</p>

<p>[Warren</a> Jeffs and the FLDS : NPR](<a href=“http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629320]Warren”>Warren Jeffs and the FLDS : NPR)</p>

<p>

</p>

99

<p>"Suspected child abuse, suspected sexual abuse, suspected incest, suspected assault and battery, suspected rape?</p>

<p>Not being an attorney, I’m not sure about the exact charges or what evidence was available or is needed. But if Jeffers was already convicted of rape in this milieu, I don’t understand why it wasn’t pursued more thoroughly at the time of his conviction." </p>

<p>Each child needed to be examined individually and does NOT have to be taken away from its mother unless there is suspicion for IMMEDIATE harm. So if a child is healthy, well-fed, and no unusual injuries, it stays with its mother. These exams can be done efficiently and do NOT require weeks or months of separation</p>

<p>If you are a doctor dealing with child abuse/neglect cases, then certainly you would know that removing 400 children is way outside of PS’s auspices, and this is not being done by usual standards.</p>

100

<p>Looks like the Texas appellate court thinks CPS acted without a factual basis. </p>

<p>[Court:</a> Texas wrongly seized sect children - FLDS hearings - MSNBC.com](<a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095]Court:”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095)</p>