<p>Yep, there was no cause when using the standards that are usually applied, which is immediate danger to the child. I work in this field a lot and know the criteria, and never thought that this was done well. I hope the children can now be with their mothers. Too bad that some of the toddlers had to have abrupt weaning from nursing.</p>
<p>I don’t know to what extent Texas has abrogated its 11th Amendment right of soverign immunity, but I suspect if a right to sue the State of Texas exists, Texas will end up paying these families a lot of money.</p>
<p>Just get those children out of foster care and back with their families. What a traumatic thing for them to have gone through. Then do what is always done, which is individually evaluate each mother and decide if the child is or was in any immediate danger. This is what the higher court said and this is right.</p>
<p>My guess is, knowing the foster care system, that some were at greater risk in those homes than they could be with their moms. </p>
<p>Then make sure that whatever happened with teenaged girls doesn’t happen again. One can put individual families under state supervivion pretty much indefinitely and set parameters. Unfortunately, now this will drive these sects even more underground, which means that other similar groups of people will hide even more.</p>
<p>Apparently these prosecutors and CPS never had enough evidence to do anything of this nature.</p>
<p>Isn’t it a crime to lie to officers investigating a possible crime–changing/not identifying names/ages/parentage of children?</p>
<p>Technically, girls mature around that age. And ‘become’ women then. So, arguably, they aren’t just little girls/children anymore.</p>
<p>But really, that’s sad. 
I was glad to see the state intervene there.</p>
<p>Well, the State/CPA is appealing the Austin court of appeals’ ruling to the Texas Supreme Court. Stay tuned.</p>
<p>Perhaps this can spur a change in legislation to allow the state to act when a nutty cult is involved to protect a group of children. Evidence of a pattern of child abuse and rape should be enough to rescue these kids - I’d like to see the women rescued too but they are adults - at least chronologically.</p>
<p>“predict that much of this case will unravel, and it won’t be pretty. Again, I’m not defending what this cult was doing with underage girls, but I just think the way it was handled will backfire.”</p>
<p>I posted this on May 2. I now predict that the situation will get even worse.</p>
<p>Deja vu?</p>
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<p>In Texas all judges are elected, just like Gov. Pyle in Arizona was back in the 1950s. The same images, arguments and allegations of over-zealous actions, this time by the State of Texas/Child Protective Services, are involved. It will be interesting to see if “nutty cult” concerns carry the day in the Texas Supreme Court.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t expect the Court to use my “nutty cult” standard since one person’s nutty cult is another person’s mainstream religion. Talk about your slippery slope. It is almost impossible to get the evidence needed to take these children with the code of silence inherent in the cult, but there is just something so wrong with the way these children are raised that I hate to think that nothing can be done.</p>
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<p>Exactly, cartera. We have to be really careful about that slippery slope. Like you said, though, surely there is another way. </p>
<p>I just finished reading “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop. She is the woman who escaped from the FLDS with her 8 children in 2003 and was granted full custody of them…the first woman to successfully get out with all her children. I highly recommend the book…though it’s a chilling read. Even if she’s exaggerating and only 10% of it is true, then those women and children have a pretty miserable existence. They are totally controlled by the fear of going to hell if they don’t follow the directives of “the prophet”, Warren Jeffs.</p>
<p>I keep thinking about how everyone thinks it’s so sad that the 15 year old girl is married off to an old guy and immediately gets pregnant. So then 4 years later she’s the mother of a 3 year old and the state comes and takes her baby away and accuses her of being an abuser. It’s the same girl!</p>
<p>I say the Texas authorities acted upon the “Seriousness of the allegation” rather than the “Attending evidence”.</p>
<p>And all of our lives, liberty and property are at risk under such a paradigm.</p>
<p>[Court:</a> Sect kids go back to parents - FLDS hearings - MSNBC.com](<a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878696/?GT1=43001]Court:”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878696/?GT1=43001)</p>
<p>Well, the Texas Supreme Court says send the kids back to the parents.</p>
<p>Here’s the majority opinion:</p>
<p>[IN</a> THE SUPREME COURT OF TEXAS](<a href=“http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/historical/2008/may/080391.htm]IN”>http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/historical/2008/may/080391.htm)</p>
<p>Here’s the dissent:</p>
<p>[IN</a> THE SUPREME COURT OF TEXAS](<a href=“http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/historical/2008/may/080391d.htm]IN”>http://www.supreme.courts.state.tx.us/historical/2008/may/080391d.htm)</p>
<p>I don’t know if this has been already posted, </p>
<p>Warren Jeff and his child brides, 12 years old. I hope there is a way to help these children. </p>
<p>[The</a> Smoking Gun: Archive](<a href=“The Smoking Gun: Public Documents, Mug Shots”>The Smoking Gun: Public Documents, Mug Shots)</p>
<p>Well, I guess this Supreme Court decision gives the FLDS permission to do as they please with their preteen and underaged aged girls…:rolleyes: Who can stop them now?</p>
<p>I just don’t understand it. How can any court or judge return children to people that think sex with 12 year old is acceptable?</p>
<p>I haven’t read the full opinion, but I think an important point was that the authorities did not take the ‘least intrusive’ approach to the allegations…perhaps removing the men alleged to have committed the crimes from the situation, rather than uprooting & separating the women and children (victims).</p>
<p>“How can any court or judge return children to people that think sex with 12 year old is acceptable?”</p>
<p>Because you’re allowed to think whatever you want without the state taking your children away. If the state wants the kid, they have to prove that you are DOING something dangerous to THAT child. Limiting the state’s power this way is, among other things, a very conservative idea.</p>
<p>The decision addresses that the State/CPS can take other steps but that a blanket removal of the children from their parents without individualized proof meeting the statutory standard for such remove (and without consideration of lesser steps to protect the child) is not permissible. </p>
<p>This is not a novel or surprising holding. The Texas Supreme Court did not condone sex with 12 year olds, it just said the statutory standard for removal of the child was not met on an individualized basis.</p>
<p>The US Supreme Court addressed a challenge in the 1800s that a Utah law prohibiting (criminalizing) polygamy was unconstitutional as an infringement on Mormon’s religious freedoms. The Court noted that multiple wives was the accepted social arrangement in “the East” and that in “the West” one wife was the social arrangement for raising children. It went on to hold that marriage was a matter for secular law, not a protected religious freedom regardless of whether multiple marriages were the way to heaven in a particular belief system.</p>
<p>Also, the age when a female can consent to having sex varies by state as does the age at which a girl can marry with or without court or parental approval or involvment. I seem to recall that some states have raised and some lowered these ages within the history of the US. </p>
<p>My recollection is that under ancient (biblical times) Hebrew law a valid marriage contract could be entered into concerning a 12 year old girl. There are societies presently where there are arranged marriages so that a girl is married off as soon as she reaches puberty. That doesn’t happen to be the case in the US.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, the statistics on pregnancy in the US indicate that girls 12 and younger are having sex (not just within sects).</p>
<p>If the charges can be proven againt a sect member in regard to a particular girl, the man can be charged with sexual abuse of a child, rape etc.</p>
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<p>I agree. They should have removed the men from the situation and continue with the investigation. And I see the moms out there speaking out. Where are the husbands ? I thought the man is the authority and such. </p>
<p>It may be that in biblical times 12 years old were married off. I also read that the prophet Mohamed was betrothed to a 5 year old and consummated the marriage when she was 9. He was then in his 50s. </p>
<p>That does not mean it is ok now for 50 year olds to marry 12 year olds. In our day and age, that is sexual exploitation and abuse.</p>