article on opting out of parenthood for financial reasons

[alh]

<p>

You are saying the " pass" is given by people on Internet debate boards?
Really, who gives a $h-+ , what they say?

</p>

<p>EXACTLY</p>

<p>:eek:</p>

<p>-oops - here we all are </p>

<p>EK - I have been a disrespected volunteer mom in my time. And I don’t even LIKE volunteering. I did it only because my kids asked me to. Another SAHM and I did all the field trips for all of HS and there were LOTS of overnight trips. The thing that I used to find most amusing was when we were told “you are so lucky. I would just love to be going to x with the kids but my job just won’t permit it.” Well - if only their jobs would have permitted it, we’d have all been much happier, because I can assure you that the other mom and I absolutely detested it. I am going to call the other mom Ms. Jersey Shore even though she didn’t actually live in Jersey or wear leopard leggings (at least on the field trips) but she could definitely walked onto the Sopranos set as an extra any day of the week - no problem. She is gorgeous and one of my favorite people in the universe. We spent a lot of time hanging out behind a wall so she could smoke unseen, and counting down the years, months, days till all our kids were graduated and we could be done with this particular part of our lives. We drank gallons of coffee. The only reason we weren’t passing a flask was because we had to really be alert and on our toes at all times - because the second most amusing thing was when we were instructed (or sometimes outright begged) “be sure my kid doesn’t take drugs, or drink, or have sex” Right, we’ll do our best. Suggestions?</p>

<p>Apologies to each and every single volunteer mom (and dad) who valued and enjoyed the experience. And to every non-volunteer mom (and dad) who would have enjoyed the experience more than I did, if it had been available to them.</p>

<p>emaheevul - I am using “top priority” almost the same way in the response to romani. It can be an ambiguous term imho. </p>

<p>Can we all be generous to each other? give each other the benefit of the doubt?</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>

This is where being an introvert comes in handy, as I simply wasn’t aware of anything I was being “excluded” from. Like I said, trees falling in the forest and making no sound!

If every other girl is invited to every party except yours, you notice. If you throw a party and not a single classmate comes, you notice. If they all go on mother-daughter trips, you notice. Thankfully that all ended by middle school, but it was awful.</p>

[Bay]

<p>I have been on both receiving ends - disrespected as a working mom, and disrespected as a stay home mom. I haven’t looked for any new studies lately, but years ago I found a study that concluded that children raised either way were indistinguishable. After that I didn’t really care what others said.</p>

[alh]

<p>Emaheevul wrote:

For me, personally, I would rather be at home taking care of the home and family than working outside the home. That is how I personally make those things my top priority, even though that is not the only way to do it-- it is the only way for ME to do it. And to my family, that makes me lazy and a waste of education. I think that’s a shame. Women fought for years for us to have CHOICES, just because we have more options now shouldn’t mean that we all still have to make the same choice.

</p>

<p>

The Price of Motherhood, a widely acclaimed bestseller, was listed by the Chicago Tribune as one of the Top Ten feminist literary works since publication of Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique in 1964. The book argues that although women have been liberated, mothers have not. Drawing on hundreds of interviews, and the latest research in economics, family law, sociology, history, and child development, this provocative book shows how mothers are uniquely disadvantaged economically. Unlike most other nations, the United States systematically refuses to value or support unpaid caring labor. As a result, mothers, children, and society as a whole pay an enormous price. Crittenden makes a forceful argument that the anachronistic, dependent status of mothers and other caregivers is the finished business of the woman’s movement.

</p>

<p>[Ann</a> Crittenden | About the Books](<a href=“http://www.anncrittenden.com/about.htm]Ann”>Ann Crittenden | About the Books)</p>

<p>

As Ann Crittenden argues in her powerful and important new book, the choice to become a mother in America today imposes enormous costs on most women, including lower incomes and higher risks of poverty than men or childless women face.

</p>

<p>

The failure of our institutions to make systematic provision for bearing and raising children means that not only do women’s incomes fall just when their family’s costs increase; the interruptions to their careers also reduce their lifetime earnings and savings. Even more than sex discrimination, this ‘‘mommy tax,’’ as Crittenden calls it, exposes women to higher risks of poverty in old age or in the event of divorce.

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/11/reviews/010211.11starrt.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/books/01/02/11/reviews/010211.11starrt.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[absweetmarie]

<p>

@Bay

… years ago I found a study that concluded that children raised either way were indistinguishable. After that I didn’t really care what others said.

</p>

<p>That doesn’t surprise me at all! </p>

<p>With regard to caring or not caring what other people think: I simply had no time to care. I was too busy making decisions that made sense for me and my daughter. The proof of the pudding was how my daughter turned out: It’s plain to anyone who meets her that she was raised in a loving (if somewhat bohemian) home, with plenty of intellectual stimulation and rock-solid values. She’s a lovely young woman, she radiates light, she’s funny, she’s polite—and she learned it all from me! </p>

<p>I will say that when choosing a community I picked one that was diverse in every sense of the word, with people at all ends of the socioeconomic spectrum and lots of nontraditional families.</p>

[ecouter11]

<p>^^ So all choices needed to be valued equally? </p>

<p>I (and my feminist friends) think, at this point in time, women have most legal rights in place- now we need to get rid of the patriarchal system and rape culture. All choices should be respected, a student wishing to go into any field ought to be mentored well regardless of gender etc. etc. </p>

<p>I think, to some extent-for that to happen, women shouldn’t be attacking other women’s choices. Feminism is about equality and ensuring that everyone has the freedom to make a choice; we should not pigeonhole anyone.</p>

[alh]

<p>

I have been on both receiving ends - disrespected as a working mom, and disrespected as a stay home mom. I haven’t looked for any new studies lately, but years ago I found a study that concluded that children raised either way were indistinguishable. After that I didn’t really care what others said.

</p>

<p>Lots of other people could have done just as good a job or even a better job than I did raising my kids. Lots of other people could have done a much worse job. Someone has to raise the kids. For a successful outcome, it will probably need to be someone with at least some sort of decent childrearing skills. All parents are not equally talented. All day-cares aren’t of the same quality. All schools aren’t equal.</p>

<p>On the Is Being a Mother a Job? thread someone said, basically, anyone can raise kids. That may or may not be true. I think it has to be true some people do it better than other people. As Crittendon points out, we really don’t usually value the individuals who caretake. I am pretty interested in how we tend to devalue paid childcare workers as well as mothers who stay home to do childcare.
…</p>

<p>

I (and my feminist friends) think, at this point in time, women have most legal rights in place- now we need to get rid of the patriarchal system and rape culture. All choices should be respected, a student wishing to go into any field ought to be mentored well regardless of gender etc. etc.

:):):)</p>

<p>1% Wives are Helping Kill Feminism and Make the War on Women Possible
<a href=“1% Wives Are Helping Kill Feminism and Make the War on Women Possible - The Atlantic”>1% Wives Are Helping Kill Feminism and Make the War on Women Possible - The Atlantic;

<p>yet another controversial article from The Atlantic</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

What I was referring to was the fact that if I am not willing to work 60-80 hour weeks because I have a responsibility to be home by 6 to make dinner for the family, I am a bad employee.

</p>

<p>Well … but in some ways, you kind of are a bad employee if that’s the case. That’s the mentality of the person at the post office who sees the line out the door, but slams the window shut because it’s quitting time. That’s the mentality of the person who could provide better customer service, but doesn’t because it’s quitting time. </p>

<p>I had a work crisis last night - the details irrelevant. My business partner - she is the president of the co- and I as well as several staffers stayed til 1 am at the office to make things right for our client so that they could have their deliverable on time, that they are paying us big bucks for. Now, certainly some things are unavoidable, but if you really have the mentality that it’s quitting time and there’s never any reason that you shouldn’t be marching out the door at that time come hell or high water and that you think it’s perfectly acceptable to leave other people in the lurch - you aren’t an employee that I want, nor do I really want you working on my businesses.</p>

<p>My H is an ob-gyn. Do you think he should have the mentality that he’s out the door at 6 pm? Maybe he should induce patients or give them unnecessary CS so he can get home in time for dinner. Or maybe if a surgery is running overlong or with complications, he should just wrap it up and say sorry - I have family responsibilities, I’m outta here. Is that really how life should work? There’s enough crappy customer service in this world by people who don’t take what they do seriously and go the extra mile – I’m not interested in the out-the-door-come-hell-or-high-water-crowd. They’re not worth it to me.</p>

[alh]

<p>PG - so how did you handle childcare so that both you and your husband could be available to work at all hours when it was necessary? How was that choice made possible? Did you have live-in help?</p>

<p>Some people, maybe the employee at the PO or someone else in a customer service position, have to pick kids up at daycare. If they are late it is a problem. Because the daycare workers also have places they need to be. Sometimes there is a fine for picking your kids up late. Usually the people who are impacted by this seem to me to be those least able to afford it.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>

There’s enough crappy customer service in this world by people who don’t take what they do seriously and go the extra mile – I’m not interested in the out-the-door-come-hell-or-high-water-crowd. They’re not worth it to me.

There is always the option of choosing a job at various times in your life that requires less hours and is more flexible. There are also times when no matter what happens at work, you have to be there for your family. Last year in January, someone tried to schedule a very important conference on the day my son had his high school audition. As soon as the date and time were set, I informed my colleagues and boss that no matter what I would not be available that day. The world didn’t end. I work very long hours during my job’s busy season and I try very hard not to schedule optional family things during that time, either. But if something truly important came up on both ends, I would pick the family. I am fortunate to work in a humane company whose hierarchy understands.</p>

[Emaheevul07]

<p>Pizzagirl, you continue to see the worst meaning possible in my posts even though that isn’t what’s right in front of you. I wrote:</p>

<p>

What I was referring to was the fact that if I am not willing to work 60-80 hour weeks because I have a responsibility to be home by 6 to make dinner for the family, I am a bad employee. The culture where I am is that you should be prepared to drop anything and everything to work late whether you really need to in order to get your work done or not, and if anything else in your life takes precedence you should find another job.

</p>

<p>Note the text in bold. There is the difference between slamming a door in a clients face because it’s 5pm, and working late just so you can say you worked late-- even though you didn’t need to in order to get your work done on time. I am talking about the latter.</p>

[poetgrl]

<p>It helps to have good time management skills to be a working parent. One of the upsides of the portability of technology, these days, is that some stuff can be done at the multi tasking level that could not be done that way before. Most of the time, either H or me could get there, but sometimes we needed assistance. The great day of our oldest getting her Driver’s license cannot be overemphasized. But, over the years, I made enough good will among those with better flexibility, did some extra, myself, on the weekends, etc…</p>

<p>Shopped for very nice, very personal gifts for the women (and they were mostly women) who filled in the blanks in the extra-curricular and school systems. But, I also took two daughters with me to take your daughter to work day for mothers who did not work outside the home, and other various things. We all worked together, and they could count on me for some things they couldn’t have done without me, as well. </p>

<p>The point is that everyone has to make their own choice, and I like what ecouter said about supporting one another’s choices. I believe we don’t value the caretakers the way that we ought to, as a culture. I just chose to do so myself.</p>

<p>And I never much cared what anyone thought about my choices, ever. But, I did care that they knew I valued theirs.</p>

[Hanna]

<p>“We don’t value motherhood in our culture. We are supremely unsupportive compared to any other culture. I’m not surprised at all.”</p>

<p>I would go farther and say that we don’t value women (or children). Women childless by choice still face a lot of misplaced pity and contempt that childless men do not. No matter what we do, we deal with judgment from some corner.</p>

[alh]

<p>

And I never much cared what anyone thought about my choices, ever. But, I did care that they knew I valued theirs.

</p>

<p>That is beautiful poetgrl. I love the picture of you taking the daughters of your SAHM friends to work along with your own girls.</p>

<p>I would guess that on this thread most of us are middle class and, if and when we work outside the home, do have the option for some flexibility in our hours and use of technology, especially when, like zoosermom, we’ve been in a position long enough our employers value our special skills. However lots of parents of young children work in hourly jobs with zero flexibility. That is the best kind of job they can find. They don’t have the luxury to switch to something else. Do we think they deserve to have children if they can’t stay late? Is this a personal problem? Or a societal problem?</p>

<p>Hanna - post 153 - yes</p>

[poetgrl]

<p>

However lots of parents of young children work in hourly jobs with zero flexibility. That is the best kind of job they can find. They don’t have the luxury to switch to something else. Do we think they deserve to have children if they can’t stay late? Is this a personal problem? Or a societal problem?

</p>

<p>bears repeating.</p>

[mythmom]

<p>alh beat me to saying to poetgrl that her idea is beautiful. I loved it.</p>

<p>ahl: I also loved your discussion of being as thoughtful as we can in our choices even if life derails us a bit.</p>

<p>I agree with your both.</p>

<p>I had this post all written and I was sidetracked by my daughter who called in a bit of frenzy because she said her paper (for history grad program) was drowning her thesis and she was lost.</p>

<p>I began this post an hour ago, but we just concluded our conversation, and I was successful in helping her deliver her thesis. It was kind of funny because she loved my ideas, but she kept saying, “No mom. Literary critics use that language; historians don’t.”</p>

<p>Her work is on lynching. This paper is specifically about how sexualized language invades the discourse of crime and punishment in lynching narrations. I’m not sure if I’ve said that as a historian or a literary critic (which I am.)</p>

<p>In my own ideal dream narrative I don’t “have” to work for financials reasons. My H is much more successful and we glide along taking vacations and buying our kids apartments.</p>

<p>None of that is true, and I do have to work, just to keep our family afloat financially. </p>

<p>I sometimes feel very sorry for myself because of this (childish I know, but I am now past sixty – just), but I know I shouldn’t.</p>

<p>However, here’s the rub. If I didn’t have to work, I probably wouldn’t. I am lazy, extremely asthmatic, kind of dreamy, never bored. I loved being home with my kids. I was able to take four years off, two for each child by contract, and I carefully planned to have them back-to-back, and it worked out.</p>

<p>Those were my happiest years, but I had to go back to college teaching.</p>

<p>The odd thing is I adore teaching. I love students. I love language. I love literature. Yesterday, I met with my favorite student to celebrate – I was instrumental in his transferring from community college to Columbia.</p>

<p>If my husband were very successful that wouldn’t have happened. He stated this as a fact. It was actually my idea.</p>

<p>So sometimes I think there is some design I can’t see.</p>

<p>No matter. We do as alh instructs – make thoughtful plans, and then we shoulder on according to plan or by devising a new plan when we must.</p>

<p>My son had me look through 75 images last night for an art history paper he is writing for his grad program. We settled on four images and he has to choose among them: one Titian and three Rubens all about a mythological theme (his chosen subject.)</p>

<p>Being an academic and a teacher has made me the perfect mother for the two children I just happened to have. And I am proud to say I can still read critical theory better than either of them can (haha!) and help them craft a thesis. Then they do the work because I am hopeless as an historian or art critic.</p>

<p>Am I a mother or a teacher? At some point these became indistinguishable, and I know I am extremely lucky to marry my personal and professional lives. At least it works for me.</p>

<p>I used the work deliver before because that was Socrates own word for the Socratic method. He used the word “midwife”, as in being a midwife to his students’ ideas. It’s interesting to note that his mother was a professional midwife.</p>

<p>I also honor any choice another woman makes – even to become a man. There is no one right answer, and often our temperaments decide for us. Other times our circumstances do. I very lucky cases our preferences do.</p>

[musicprnt]

<p>Being a parent means making tough choices, and I can appreciate a couple who is honest enough to say they don’t want kids, I would rather that then parents who don’t go in with open eyes.</p>

<p>Unfortunately, in the last 40 years we have had a major shift in our lives, when I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s many mom’s didn’t work, or if they did, they went back to work after the kids were further along. I have heard right wing gasbags go on about how women are selfish, that they work to be able to have the large house, the fancy car, but that isn’t true in many cases (there are people like that, but they are the minority by far), for many people it is economic necessity to have even a basic middle class lifestyle I am not saying that there aren’t ways to raise kids where it doesn’t cost as much, I had friends who were blue collar with a lot of kids, with a modest family income, and they made it…but there is only a certain level you can do with that.So many things that are basic are expensive today and even if you scrimp and save it isn’t easy, so it isn’t the same world, and the decline in wages has meant it has become imperitive in many cases that both parents work simply to do basic things. </p>

<p>It also isn’t surprising people are opting out in hard times, especially when the economic future looks so bleak. The birth rate in the depression of the 1930’s tumbled, for the very reason people were scared, didn’t know if it would ever end…</p>

<p>We have been fortunate, we were able to do a lot on a single salary because I have been fortunate to do better then average. In our case we only have 1 child, we had thought about having others but given who he is, what he showed us early, we felt like we were better concentrating resources on him rather then having more, and while I regret not having more kids, I also think what we did has allowed him to find his passion, his muse (and given his chosen avocation at this point, in music, it is likely it will extend a number of years). We have taken criticism over our choices, had people telling us having more kids was more important, that we were making a mistake, but in the end, you have to accept other people’s choices. Ironically, we are accused of being parents trying to create the super baby who would go to Harvard and become an investment banker and make millions, and what we are supporting is a musically intense kid who has chosen an avocation that takes the utmost in effort, is competitive in a way that makes ivy admissions look easy, and is financially not exactly 7 figure material, or even 6 figures in many cases…We were able to support his growth intellectually by not having to go to public schools that don’t do well with kids who are out there, we were able to support the music, including having my wife as his full time personal assistant/driver/you name it…it came at a cost we were willing to make, I don’t have a huge retirement fund, we haven’t taken a real vacation since my son was very small (and even then it was modest), we don’t drive expensive cars and run them into the ground (I am still crying over the loss of my beloved subaru wagon, believe me)… the thing is, we knew this and went forward with it…and like I said, we also were so, so fortunate that we could do this, with sacrifices galore, but not everyone could or can, something the pundits making several million a year (yeah, Bill O’Reilly, you) can’t comprehend. </p>

<p>The other factor is that birthrate has always shown a reverse trend as people move up the income scale, it seems an oxymoron, but it is true. Birth rate has tended to be highest in people of less strong economic circumstances, the countries in Europe birthrate dropped as they became more industrialized and the middle class grew and the same thing is being played out all over the world. Even without the chinese rule of 1 child, it is likely that the well off Chinese who have prospered would have a lot of kids;in India, the middle class is indistinguishable from middle class people elsewhere, while the large swath of Indians who are of less modest means still tend to have a high birthrate. For middle class people they want to pass on to their children the resources that will allow them to grow or at the very least stay middle class and as a result will limit children to have more resources for each child. Conversely, the poorer people tend to have more kids, among other factors, because having more kids means having more hands helping support them when they get old and so forth…</p>

<p>It is funny, we have made a lot of economic sacrifices for our son, given him as much as we can, and i personally have made sacrifices in terms of the path in life I would rather have followed, that would have made my life maybe a bit more fulfilling, but when I look at my son and see the person he has become, remember everything we have shared with him, when we sit and yell sarcastic remarks at the Jets when watching them (and having my wife yell up she couldn’t tell who said what, kid is a chip off the old block that way <em>lol</em>), I can’t imagine not having that in my life, despite all the challenges and sacrifices. </p>

<p>I truly hope that people who wants kids have them for the right reasons, because they truly want them and want to raise the next generation, and I can respect those who chose not to, the way i respect families for their decisions, whether it be a stay at home mom/stay at home dad, whether it is a single parent, same or opposite sex couple, if they love their kids and really want to have them,if it is two working parents or whatever, mazel tov for loving your kids and doing your best by them, and it is better to not have kids (and maybe help family members or friiends with their own childrearing) then to do it and regret it, because that gets taken out on the kids IME.</p>

[geeps20]

<p>

I think women fawn over babies because they are expected to by society, because women are “supposed to like babies,” not because they really do

</p>

<p>maybe some do, but I doubt that is the case…My wife certainly wouldn’t agree with your statement.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

The point is that everyone has to make their own choice, and I like what ecouter said about supporting one another’s choices. I believe we don’t value the caretakers the way that we ought to, as a culture. I just chose to do so myself.</p>

<p>And I never much cared what anyone thought about my choices, ever. But, I did care that they knew I valued theirs

</p>

<p>I guess I’m a little perplexed as to how this “valuation” of others’ choices shows up in everyday life. Honestly, I feel I just go about living my life as I see fit and others go live their lives as they see fit, and unless they explicitly ask me for my opinion or vice versa, I don’t feel I need to “support” their choices – I just need to be pleasantly indifferent to them.</p>

<p>I don’t need someone (outside my immediate family) to “support” my choice to paint my living room purple or vacation in Hawaii or name my kid Bertha. So how or why do I need someone to “support” my choice to work or not? How does this manifest itself – do I need a chorus of neighborhood moms saying “Wow, Pizzagirl, it is so totally awesome that you work, you GO girl”? What IS it about women where we can’t just go do anything without requiring a chorus of other women “supporting it”? I love Oprah and all, but it’s all too much for me, and it’s a burden that men don’t have. I don’t know any men who ask for “support” for choosing the careers or life choices they make. They just … go do. </p>

<p>It’s like the someecard (love that site!) which says … “I’d really like your validation, if that’s ok with you.”</p>

[poetgrl]

<p>Maybe it has to do with the absolute “fact” that laws that regulate what women can and cannot do with their body are continually up for debate by men and women in ways they are never up for debate about men. The obtuseness of acting as if women’s reproductive freedom is not currently under attack is beneath your intellectual acumen, PG.</p>