Article says 15-year old girl driven to suicide by bullying

emeraldkity4 · April 1, 2010, 12:01pm

mimk6-

I also meant to include adults meaning any adult who had a role with the teens. Parents, coaches etc. We can see signs, but we ignore them, cause we don’t want to take charge " we want them to * like* us, cause we are lazy , for any number of reasons.

Parents should be aware of their kids behavior & I don’t think that rage to the point of punching a girl in the head and slamming her into a locker after she talked to a news crew about her classmates death, can be hidden from adults who have known you since birth.-

CTTC · April 1, 2010, 12:16pm

I wouldn’t trust the school’s own investigation at all, because they have plenty of reasons to do a very bad job. They are far from impartial.

jonri · April 1, 2010, 12:36pm

I listened to Anderson Cooper last night. He did a short segment on the Phoebe Prince case. He also had as guests the parents of a 13 year old boy who committed suicide Sunday night because he couldn’t face going back to school. He was bullied. The bullying included having his head shoved in a toilet bowl and being put in a garbage dumpster. It was heart-breaking.

But one of the experts–the one who wrote the “Queen Bees” book–made a point I’d never thought of. She said many teachers who see something ask the victim “Are you all right?”–often in front of the bully. She said the kid ALWAYS says yes. The victim KNOWS what will happen to him/her if (s)he says no in front of the bully. She said the teacher shouldn’t even acknowledge the victim; (s)he should immediately confront the bully. She said that even teachers who WANT to help often go about it the wrong way–by trying to help the victim by talking to the victim.

That got me thinking…

I note that South Hadley High referred Phoebe Prince to a counselor. Maybe that is EXACTLY the WRONG thing to do. It reinforces the idea that the VICTIM is the CAUSE of the problem. When the counselor is a school counselor–as in Prince’s case–the word always gets out. The bullies then know that they are really “getting to” the victim and the idea that the victim DESERVES the bullying is reinforced–"See, she’s “messed up;” that’s why she needs counseling. What you should be doing is MANDATING counseling for the BULLIES–so they are given the message “I’m the one who is screwed up”–a message they will fight. Still, forcing the BULLY to attend the counseling session sends the message to other students that this behavior is SICK and it may no longer be quite so “cool” to be one of the participants.

And think of the parent-child-school dynamic. "Hi, Ms Narey, Mulveyhill, Chanon, Longe, or Mullins. This is the school principal. Your teen’s behavior in school is so aggressive that we feel that (s)he needs to spend time with a therapist dealing with anger management. We will not permit your teen to return to school until (s) has enrolled in such a program and attended at least one session. If the counselor thinks additional sessions are warranted, your teen must attend them. If (s)he fails to do so, (s)he will be expelled from this school. "

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 12:44pm

I agree with everything emerald stated.

It is insane that a child can get ISS for giving an advil to another student.

Schools have lost sight of the big picture.

For example, dress code.
The school systems that my children attended (NC and VA) have strict dress codes.

<ol>
<li>Girls cannot wear tank tops or have their back or stomach showing. </li>
</ol>

I received a call from my DD that I needed to bring a top to school for her because she was sent to the office for inappropriate attire. I saw what she wore to school. A teacher saw her bending over into her locker and the shirt rode up exposing her back. She could not keep it tucked in and touch her toes. She could walk and sit with it tucked in, but that didn’t matter.

<ol>
<li> Our DS got ISS in MAY 2 yrs ago, because the rule is you must wear a belt if the pants had belt loops. He forgot to put it on and as soon as he got to school they sent him to ISS until I brought a belt.</li>
</ol>

Here’s the CRAZY back story. School calls me and says:
“Typically we give kids belts so they don’t get ISS, but we have lent all of them out and none of them have been returned.”

HMM, Let me get this right, because kids kept the belts, my child will get a zero? Why aren’t the kids you lent the belts to getting a zero for not returning them?

Second, the CLASSIC part…if the pants have no loops they cannot/will not enforce the belt loop. What did the kids who wanted to expose their underwear do, DAY ONE…CUT THE LOOPS! We followed with good faith the rule of the school and got penalized, the others who intentionally manipulated the rule got a free pass.

This is why I say schools need to use common sense. Those teachers in both scenarios had common sense, Bullet’s and my kids are A/B students in honors and APs, but yet a rule is a rule. I told the gc I will be there in 5 minutes for our DS and asked her to keep him in the office and not to send him to ISS…NOPE he had to go because that was the rule.

Now let me add the final wrinkle of this school (NUMBER 1 in the county academically). A child who was kicked off the buses because of poor behavior was placed on my children’s bus since his MOM was their driver. He thought it was funny to sexually finger girls as they walked past him to get on or off the bus. Did he get OSS or ISS even though parents complained? NO, his Mom was the bus driver and Union so his punishment after being kicked off of his “home” bus was to now place him on ours under his Mother’s supervision…am I the only one that sees the inequity…your child does it and you will be forced to drive them, the school would separate them from the students. The employee who has a child found guilty of “fingering” 14 yo girls on other buses is allowed to ride another bus because they believe that the parent can supervise them more closely while guaranteeing safety for all of the other children?

FWIW, he did finally lose all bus priviledges the last week of school because of me. He tried to to do that to our DD and unfortunately for him, her younger brother 6’2 220 lbs saw it and slapped his hand away. The driver was forced to stop because her DS tackled my DS in the aisle. She had to report the incident of both boys. The principal interviewed 10+ kids and again she was told this washer DS’s typical MO regarding riding the bus.

A yr later he was PERMANENTLY removed from riding school buses because he started it all over again in the Fall. His mother’s defense was “he was just messing around and it meant nothing”.

As for the are you alright aspect I agree, it is the wrong approach. Our DD would have allowed it to continue based on fear. It was the fact that the bus driver was going to have her brother penalized. She stood up because it was HER brother and he did what she hoped others would do…STAND UP AND PROTECT. Our DD is 5’1, and tiny, without her YOUNGER brother I fear it could have been much worse for her and the girls like her.

SAD…SAD…SAD that many parents refuse to see the writing on the wall that their own children are morally bankrupt.

emeraldkity4 · April 1, 2010, 12:48pm

you should be doing is MANDATING counseling for the BULLIES–so they are given the message “I’m the one who is screwed up”–a message they will fight. Still, forcing the BULLY to attend the counseling session sends the message to other students that this behavior is SICK and it may no longer be quite so “cool” to be one of the participants.

Good point.

When my oldest was in elementary school ( a very small " prestigious and expensive" :rolleyes: school), one girl in her class harassed her.
My daughter is very verbal and bright, but she also was relatively quiet and anxious. this other girl would " accidentally" shove her on the stairs, would interrupt her during class to the point that we breathed a sigh of relief when elementary school ended and she changed schools.
( it didn’t seem to be more than that- but we were watchful)

Until- at the meeting for 6th grade parents at my daughters new school- her mothers’ walked in ( she had two), :eek:.

My stomach sank, but I spoke to them afterward and they were aware of her behavior and she was in counseling- we also had a discussion with both of the girls that went pretty well and they actually became friends. Not great friends, and the other girl eventually transferred to another school, but I was happy that they had learned how to deal appropriately with the situation.

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 1:09pm

The problem is you cannot mandate a child to attend counseling until the “law” gets involved.

There are great parent out there who are consciously aware of their child’s behavior and are doing everything in their power to fix it. However, that is RARE. I think it is more common that parents will say “NOT MY KID” or “YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH MY CHILD” than to actually acknowledge that their child has a problem. To many it is not about the child that bothers them as much as you criticizing themselves as a parent!

Even look around CC Parent Cafe P&E, there are kids, (Sorry, but 15-16 yo are kids) who have no problem whatsoever to call parents names in a derogatory way and insult their children. They are virtual BULLIES. Where are their parents? All of my children have gmail, aim, facebook accts., but I also have their passwords. They know that I will periodically check their accts. That is what a parent of a minor should do IMHO. If a child has nothing to hide they will not FLIP OUT if you check their on-line history. IF they do, than it should be a warning flag to you that 2=2 isn’t = 4!

Look at the East Bridgewater incident with the home damaged and kids proudly boasting on facebook that they were HOMEWRECKERS, can their parents say they truly parented their children? That they had any insight into their personality/feelings/emotions?

Years ago, I had to make a very difficult phone call to my BIL. I had to inform him that his DD’s friend was IMing our DS (facebook) with very explicit sexual messages. He (BIL) was shocked. He thought of her as IVORY SOAP (99 44/100% PURE). Our DS did the right thing and approached us that as an 18 yo with a ROTC scholarship he was concerned because she was 14 and stalking him. He asked us to get her away via his aunt and uncle.

Maybe these parents should look inside of themselves and question where they failed? IMVHO kids with active parental involvement are less likely to create issues. Many times problems occur because the Parent thought that their job of guiding/directing was over. People worry about placing their babies in child care, reality is the big problems don’t happen at 2 or 3 yo, it happens when they are in Middle and High School. That is the time kids need the folks around.

SWHarborfan · April 1, 2010, 1:13pm

This is heartrending. My heart goes out to the girl, her family. There have to be legal sanctions for this sort of thing. Certainly, there are legal consequences for harrassment and vendettaism, no?? And the lack of remorse on the part of the bullies–how disheartening and sick.

And where are the bullies’ parents in all of this?! In denial, most likely–checked out.

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 1:20pm

SWH…they checked out a long time ago!

Maybe I am wrong, but have you seen a child that becomes all of the sudden a BULLY in HS? No, it was long time coming. Unfortunately, many Bullies exist because it is an insecurity issue. Educationally or socially. Parents many times prefer to believe it is “a growing period”, they do not want to acknowledge that even something so simple as getting an IEP because they may have ADHD can make a difference. They don’t want to acknowledge that there were many cries from the child that they chose to ignore.

Where they are now is in an attorney’s office and reviewing their homeowner’s insurance to see if they are fiscally liable for wrongful death. A good lawyer will prove that because the kids used Facebook/Twitter and they paid for the internet and cell bill THEY ARE LIABLE. Columbine will be used as proof that parents can be held liable.

SWHarborfan · April 1, 2010, 1:20pm

The principal and the other indifferent administrators need to be fired (and sued)–it will send the appropriate message to other school heads about adopting lassitude and passivity re: bullying, which is an AUTHENTIC criminal act, in my book.

SWHarborfan · April 1, 2010, 1:22pm

Absolutely! Agreed! And, yes, bullies always have a history, a trail of victims.

This is so outrageously sad.

CTTC · April 1, 2010, 1:25pm

[Suspect’s</a> mother: ‘My daughter never fought with’ Phoebe Prince - BostonHerald.com](<a href=“http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100330suspects_mother_my_daughter_never_fought_with_her/]Suspect’s”>http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100330suspects_mother_my_daughter_never_fought_with_her/)

Here is one bully’s mother making excuses…

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 1:32pm

THe principal and administrators will not be fired, they WILL resign. The saddest part is that many will resign with 100% retirement benefits. Yes, they will take a hit fiscally, but at the same time 75% of pay and full medical is not going to kill them, like their in-actions did to Phoebe.

Personally, I can’t believe that they are still trying to defend their actions. To me they are worse then the kids. The kids are kids, they are still immature, and I highly doubt they ever thought she would commit suicide. They are adults, did they miss Megan Meier and the MYSPACE issue?

As a parent, if they(Phoebe’s parents) came out and gave an 800 number to help pay for their legal defense to sue, I would send a check.

The saddest part is a child died, but I do believe it is not in vain. I think many schools now will address this issue and take it to heart that Bullying is not a rite of passage. It doesn’t make you a better person because you survived it.

spideygirl · April 1, 2010, 1:34pm

I wonder if the majority of teachers and school administrators were themselves students who were highly functional and happy in the school environment. I read something like that somewhere. I also wonder if this then makes them, on average, predisposed to going along with the status quo, looking the other way, and smoothing things over in order for the whole weird organism to creep forward into another day.

I am an entrepreneurial type. While I was successful in school, the sitting still and behaving part was tough. It was not a natural environment for me - something I had to endure to get where I belonged. I think I would not be your typical teacher, if I was a teacher. And I certainly would not have reacted to what went on the way the adults-in-charge did at that high school.

I would have publicly called any of those kids out - made a HUGE stink even at the risk of losing my job - at the first HINT of bullying. My nose would have been one INCH from the nose of any offender. I would have scared the tar out of them. I would have been following this story up close and personal. I would have been checking up on all the players online. I would have scrambled, I would have efforted, I would have happily ticked everyone else off. I would have threatened to get the police involved at the get-go. Intense and early. That would have been my game, and it should be every adults game who is entrusted to lead young people.

zoosermom · April 1, 2010, 1:37pm

After what my family has been through, I’m very glad that this behavior is getting the attention it deserves.

On a personal level, I urge every parent to make sure that their child doesn’t have a formspring account. There is absolutely no good to come of that website.

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 1:46pm

CTTC.

Thanks for the link. Here are a couple of striking points the mother of the indicted girl said

Okay, she exchanged words, but the fact that her defense is her DD did not say go harm yourself or physically attacked her does not mean her DD was not malicious! I wonder if she would feel the same if she had to pick out the casket for her DD! Would she say, “Don’t blame the school or the kids because they were just being teenagers!”? BS she would be demanding that Phoebe was arrested.

HMM…so School suspension was the motivator to ground her…where were your parenting skills knowing that she already had an issue with the girl…a new student who moved from Ireland only last summer! I would also love to know if her DD’s friends/clique were the other indicted children. Kids float with others that they have a common bond with! Don’t play I am a great parent that is involved and my kid is innocent if her ENTIRE CLIQUE is indicted! How involved are you to miss the warning signs of their friends?

I would like to know did she ask why Phoebe was calling her names? Or did she just think her DD was an ANGEL or as she said THEY’RE TEENAGERS? Where was her parenting line? She as a parent knew her DD was having a problem, if her DD is so innocent and she is such a great parent why didn’t she contact the school for Bullying?

I would love more info on that, specifically why her DD pointed out Phoebe and what her DD said about Phoebe.

Proof that people have a misguided belief that only VIOLENCE hurts and that words/actions don’t.

The Chanon family is probably feeling more pain than they could ever imagine, because I am betting like the Meier case they now need police protection from death threats. I guess they are now coming to terms with the fact that Bullies can frighten you to an extreme where you feel trapped.

poetgrl · April 1, 2010, 1:50pm

Jonri–Wow! That is such a great insight. It is true that the kids being bullied are the ones sent for counseling…and they are not the problem. We need to turn it on it’s head. Of course, all the adults are most concerned that the victim be taken care of and that’s why it happens, but that really isn’t the message it sends to the kids, is it? Great point.

As to the Hadley school, what I most hope is that Phoebe’s parents will have the energy in the midst of what must be life destroying grief to pursue a lawsuit against the school district. I think a lawsuit is the best way to get ALL schools to pay attention to thier policies. It just seems as if there is a lot of “education” schools like to trot out about bullying, but very little action. I’ve seen this happen to a friend of my D’s. Fortunately my D did not go along with the bullying and did her part to put an end to it. But, when I suggested she involve the administration at school, she thought I was being naive.

At that point, I involved the other parents in the grade and we had a sit down with the parents of the group of “mean girls” and told them exactly what we had seen and what we had heard. We also let them know that we would be going to the police if they didn’t take care of it.

The “mean girls” were suddenly able to control themselves. The parents did at first have a “Not my daughter” attitude, but I think the fact that there were ten of us and the fact that we were going to go to the police changed things. I have to credit our kids with it, though. The girls who were willing to come forward were not the ones being bullied, just girls who did not like what it was that they saw.

Mostly, though, I don’t think parents are afraid of school administrators. Parents are afraid of the department of children’s services and the police. fwiw.

lindz126 · April 1, 2010, 1:50pm

^^good for you Spidey–it is our responsibility to speak up…

amazing how this mother is defending her daughter and stating she didn’t do those things?? first of all, how does she know, she wasn’t there. second, she acknowledges that her daughter had a verbal altercation, but then accuses Prince of calling names, how disrespectful to blame a girl who can no longer speak the truth. again, how can she excuse her daughter when she was not there. and I love how she admits her daughter pointed to Prince the day of Prince’s death, um, pointed?? what exactly was she pointing for? no bullying? no tormenting?

Jonri–I support your point that when bullying is witnessed by an adult/teacher etc. the bully should be called out and disciplined. when adults sit back we send a message that we too are afraid of the bully. the kids passively watching should be required to sit through anti-bullying training. parents of the bully need to be advised that their child’s behavior is unacceptable – no ifs ands or buts. The student should be suspended, with a recommendation for appropriate help ie. anger management.

Gwen_Fairfax · April 1, 2010, 2:13pm

this is a great thread-- SO much truth here, about the teachers going with the status quo, and the fact that bullies need counseling…and finally, that the parents of bullies are the LAST to help. In many if not most cases the bullies learned their behavior FROM their parents. I must say that seeing all the thoughtful responses here makes me feel better-- I was waiting to see more of the “toughen up” and “kids will be kids” garbage.

bulletandpima · April 1, 2010, 2:26pm

UPDATE

The Superintendent just threw the Principal under the bus. On MSNBC he stated that there were no reports of Bullying by the Principal reported to the BOE. He still has full confidence in the principal according to the reports he has received regarding this issue.

In other words IMHO, they are making it clear that they had no knowledge and the Principal acted on his own without BOE support.

10 will get you 20, the principal will resign by the Monday…most likely Friday because they hope that the news cycle will get over it because of spring break.

Here’s the infuriating part as a parent

REALLY? As someone who was once a teacher, we were required to monitor the halls during passing time and do lunch duty…Pretty hard to miss hearing IRISH WHORE/SLUT or food thrown at the student in the lunch room! When did Slut or Whore become a kids way of communicating that adults don’t get? We are not talking about the high pitch tone that kids set their cell phones to.

Additionally Phoebe’s mother met administrators last fall regarding these problems…is Sayer stating that he poo-poo’d the parents with fears because they didn’t understand kid communication and he did?

In the schools I taught at the Principal walked the hallways and lunch room. Is he really saying that he is so out of touch with the students and teachers not to notice BULLYING? If that is the fact than it is 1 of 2 things:

A. HE IS A BULLY, and teachers feared him.
B. HE never leaves his office and is out of touch with HS students and teachers.

poetgrl · April 1, 2010, 2:29pm

I vote…B.

Article says 15-year old girl driven to suicide by bullying

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