As a society..we chose selfishness

<p>Really? Busdriver11…</p>

<p>““Self-love,” Jefferson wrote to a friend 38 years after the Declaration, “is no part of morality. Indeed it is exactly its counterpart. It is the sole antagonist of virtue leading us constantly by our propensities to self-gratification in violation of our moral duties to others”</p>

<p>Here is an example …</p>

<p>[Explainer:</a> Why the LIBOR scandal is a bigger deal than
JPMorgan](<a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/05/explainer-why-the-libor-scandal-is-a-bigger-deal-than-jpmorgan/]Explainer:”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/07/05/explainer-why-the-libor-scandal-is-a-bigger-deal-than-jpmorgan/)</p>

<p>Deborah T…yeah…I am waiting for an explanation too…I had no idea welfare recipients were excluded from volunteering.</p>

<p>

I don’t get that either. It doesn’t take money to hold someone’s hand or help them prepare a meal or something. Or even read a story.</p>

<p>I thought Bus dropped back from that comment.</p>

<p>It doesn’t take money to hold someone’s hand or help them prepare a meal or something. Or even read a story.</p>

<p>Lovely.</p>

<p>“I thought Bus dropped back from that comment.”</p>

<p>I did. For those who didn’t read that, I was merely remarking upon an interview I had heard recently that was on my mind. It was inappropriate for this conversation. The lady felt entitled to have everyone else support her children. Instead of looking for a job, she was volunteering, doing what she wanted to do. The way it was said was not admirable, and you would have agreed with me. But like I said, I shouldn’t have brought that example into this conversation. You can keep remarking on it if you like, but that misses what I intended to say. Is there anyone here who would actually think it is a better option for an individual to volunteer in lieu of working, while collecting welfare, food stamps and subsidized housing than to work for pay if they have the skills and ability to find work?</p>

<p>I said maybe…</p>

<p>Actually, getting out into the community, volunteering and networking can often lead to paying jobs, either within the organization or by way of networking with people. </p>

<p>I do think we are a much more self centered society than ever before.</p>

<p>“Actually, getting out into the community, volunteering and networking can often lead to paying jobs, either within the organization or by way of networking with people”</p>

<p>Well certainly. That is why many people are taking unpaid internships and volunteering rather than doing nothing at all. But if you have the option to find work and support your children, I say do that as your first priority, then spend your extra time volunteering. If you aren’t taking care of your own children as top priority, you really aren’t doing society any favors.</p>

<p>Ah, so you advocate homeschooling for all! ;)</p>

<p>I agree with busdriver.
I admit though, that I have used volunteering as a respite to get out of the house and to force my H to do a little more. ( He is very helpful around the house now, but I sure could have used more of that 20 years ago!)
It was very stressful at home at times, and I didn’t manage it very well. I was certainly needed at my Ds school, and I got positive reinforcement for doing so, but it’s possible that if I hadn’t someone else might have.
My situation was not the same as the mother using social services however.</p>

<p>My $0.02…it takes a village…</p>

<p>“Ah, so you advocate homeschooling for all!”</p>

<p>Oh Lord, help my children if they had to endure homeschooling from their parents! I don’t think that doing your best to make sure your own children are well taken care of (and in our case, that DEFINITELY doesn’t involve homeschooling), and contributing to society are mutually exclusive. It’s certainly not one or the other, but I’m sure everyone agrees with that.</p>

<p>“I admit though, that I have used volunteering as a respite to get out of the house”</p>

<p>I think there are many times the volunteers get more out of the experience than those they are helping, and the sense of fulfillment is what keeps them going back. Nothing wrong with that. And plenty of people I know don’t work, but they spend most of their time volunteering. I find that very admirable, and is a completely different situation than that one lady I listened to. What bothered me was really not what she was doing with her time, but the absolute sense of entitlement that everyone else needed to support her children as opposed to herself.</p>

<p>It’s one Person, busdriver11…</p>

<p>The banks just stole hundreds of millions again…
With this Libor deal…
Maybe more…</p>

<p>And you are worried about a welfare person who is volunteering her time?</p>

<p>There are plenty of jobs that don’t pay a living wage. Maybe that is an issue too.
These banking jobs do pay living wage…yet these bankers steal and
steal. They can’t help themselves. Their self interest is messing up society.</p>

<p>You are right, dstark, it is just one person. And as I have said multiple times in this thread, IT IS IRRELEVANT TO THIS CONVERSATION AND I WISH I HADN’T MENTIONED IT. I am not fixated on one single person, it just was on my mind, and people keep addressing one comment that really isn’t relevant, so I respond. I probably should just not respond. But I can’t delete it.</p>

<p>So why not drop it? I am not worried about a welfare person volunteering their time. And I am disgusted with the bank situation also. But there’s far more than just bankers messing up society.</p>

<p>I don’t know much about the LIBOR scandal, but the first paragraph of the article dstark linked included this:

Maybe Diamond is lying. If he’s not, well, you can’t blame just the bankers.</p>

<p>I hear what you’re saying, Busdriver. You felt the woman had her priorities out of order. What I’m getting at is that when you’re earning a living and getting paid for what you do, it’s easy to overlook all the ways in which others help you be able to do that. If you’re counting on public schools, you too, are using a public service and members of society are paying for that service. Not advocating for or against public schools. Making the point it is too easy to judge harshly, and we should probably all be careful about that.</p>

<p>busdriver’s volunteer story reminded me of an analogy that is appropos. When you are a passenger in a plane, and the oxygen masks drop down, you are instructed to put your own mask on before helping others with theirs. This makes perfect sense, but is not always obvious to everyone.</p>

<p>^^now that is an analogy even I can understand, bay!</p>

<p>“If you’re counting on public schools, you too, are using a public service and members of society are paying for that service. Not advocating for or against public schools. Making the point it is too easy to judge harshly, and we should probably all be careful about that”</p>

<p>Very true. It is easy to judge others in the general sense, not so easy when it is someone you know personally. Though your public school example isn’t one the works for us. Actually, we have paid for private schools since the kids were very young, and still are in college, while paying large sums of money in property taxes to send other peoples kids to public school.</p>

<p>But certainly there are plenty of services that everybody uses, and it is far more useful that we pool our money together to take care of those things.</p>

<p>"^^geeps, apparently there are those who believe that self reliance and self empowerment is selfishness. "</p>

<p>It all depends, and I have heard terms like ‘self reliance’ and ‘self empowerment’ used by people who are doing so denigrating others. There are a ton of people in this country who make out like they have to pay for everyone else, they get nothing from the government, are ‘self reliant’ and when you look under the covers you can see outright the hypocrisy behind that. Farmers tend to be big on that kind of thing, evil government, etc, yet they collect 10’s of billions of dollars in subsidies when commodity prices are at all time highs, or corn farmers make out like bandits because of the idiotic government subsidies for ethanol. People in certain states sneer about ‘liberal welfare states’, yet those liberal welfare states get a lot less back from the feds then the states those people hail from, and so forth. Old people on medicare rail against “socialized medicine” when they are recipients of it, and so forth. </p>

<p>Then, too, there is the extreme of this, the ‘self made man’ kind of people who follow the precepts of Ayn Rand (one of the more vile people ever to come onto this earth; what really gets me is hearing religious right types praise her writings, when she was the anti Christian in so many ways), those who say “hey, I made it, to hell with everyone else”. The subscribe to the notions of people like Rourke, the architect, who believes he and the others of his level are basically ‘the chosen’ and everyone else is parasites, that they have no duty to anyone else. </p>

<p>Self reliance and self empowerment are important, the opposite of that is people who are perpetual victims. But those who proclaim themselves as examples of ‘self reliance’ and ‘bringing themselves up by their bootstraps’ are basically lying, deliberately or not. Chances are they went to public schools, paid for by people who might not even have kids (and if their family had multiple kids, even more so). They probably used a public library, if they went to college they probably had aid or scholarships someone funded or government backed loans or grants; they probably at one time or the other had mentors who helped them to achieve (David McCullough, the great historian, had a line that in effect said show him any great ‘self made man’, and he will show you probably at least 10 people who have helped that man achieve).</p>

<p>The problem is when self reliance and self empowerment is thrown out there as a bromide to those less fortunate, when people who were not always so self reliant knock others for not being. As Dr. King said, expecting someone to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they don’t have boots is idiotic. More importantly, it often is denigrating, it is saying ‘look what I did, look how great I am am, I did this all by myself’ (which is prob an exaggeration if not downright lie) with the not so indirect implication that those in need of help are simply lazy or lacking…</p>

<p>Funny thing about the settlers, one of the first things they did when other people moved into an area was to try and recreate civilization, in a lot of cases for mutual benefit…settlements became towns, and they established schools and churches; people in the area helped each other raise a barn or do other things, and so forth. It didn’t take all that long for this happen, and in many ways the ‘rugged individualist’ settlers couldn’t wait to ‘civilize’. </p>

<p>John Muir, when he wrote about nature, said that when you attempt to touch one thing in nature, you found it inexplicably tied to everything else. With human society, we don’t live on an Island, unto ourselves (paraphrasing Mr. Donne), we are connected in a tangled web of threads to others, some coming into us, others going out.</p>

<p>^That post makes me feel like people have no control over their lives or future. It is quite fatalistic.</p>

<p>uh-oh, someone broke out the caps lock. :)</p>

<p>I agree with the above, it takes a village. And yes, we live in a selfish society.</p>