<p>OK, I think we have the answer … everyone pays an equal share of cost. Good. Divide the number of students into the Expense side of the UC budget, and you have per-student “cost.” Make that figure annual tuition. Granted, with all other forms of income removed from the equation … room & board, sports, bookstore, scientific grants, speaking fees, etc … EVERYONE’S tuition will be up significantly. But hey, if you really want to match “cost” to student tuition to eliminate the IS/OOS delta, what could be fairer than this???</p>
<p>We are considered international being from Canada and I have no real problem understanding the higher costs considering that we do not pay taxes in the State she goes to college in. Where I do have a problem though is that some US colleges or Universities have bluntly told us that she does not qualify for merit scholarships because she is international. She is in her senior year and has an overall gpa of 3.98. She finished last semester with a perfect 4 but cannot get a merit based scholarship. A number of the schools she would like to attend for her masters have the same policy. I do understand higher costs for us but…</p>
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<p>Most economists would say renters do pay property taxes, and often at a far higher rate than homeowners. For the landlord, property taxes are just another business cost that will be passed on to the renter in the form of higher rent. In many states, homeowners are taxed at a lower effective rate than rental properties through a variety of mechanisms: different assessment practices for different classes of property, homestead exemptions that homeowners can claim on their state income taxes but renters and landlords can’t, deductibility of property taxes from federal and state income taxes for homeowners when those property taxes are paid directly, but not for renters who pay property taxes indirectly through their rent, and so on.</p>
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<p>Except it really doesn’t work like that. Most people, including many posters on this thread, vastly overestimate how much they’re paying to support their state’s public universities through taxation. I’ll take UVA as an example, because the numbers are fairly simple to calculate. The Commonwealth of Virginia spends about $1.5 billion annually on higher education. Sounds like a lot of money, but in a state with 8.1 million people that works out to about $185 per year per capita. Not all taxes are paid directly by individuals, of course, but let’s suppose that, one way or the other, that $185 per capita is ultimately coming out of household budgets in the form of taxes directly paid and higher prices for goods and services purchased from businesses that are taxed. So if Mom and Dad have Junior and all 3 of them are paying $185/per year toward the state’s higher education system, they’ll have “paid in” a combined total of about $10,000 over the course of the 18 years until Junior is ready to go off to college. </p>
<p>But that’s not very much. An OOS or international student attending UVA will pay $25,000 more per year in tuition than a Virginia resident. That’s $100,000 more over the course of a 4-year education. Of course, Junior’s Mom and Dad, and let’s assume Junior, too, will continue to pay taxes over those 4 years (though it gets hard to see how Junior’s tax contribution during college will be any different than the OOS or international student’s, but whatever; let’s credit Junior with his full $185/year). So that’s another $2,220 that Mom, Dad, and Junior will pay in taxes, partially offsetting the $100,000 more the OOS/International student is paying in tuition. And Mom and Dad, and perhaps Junior too (unless he moves out of state), might continue to pay taxes for another 20, 30, or 40 years (though Junior may someday have kids of his own, so at some point we may need to reset the clock on him to account for his own kids’ education). But however long they work, it’s hard to see that their lifetime tax contributions will ever match what the OOS/International student has paid in tuition. And if Mom and Dad send 2 kids to college, it gets even more out of whack, because you can’t double-count Mom & Dad’'s tax contribution. </p>
<p>And remember, only a fraction of that tax contribution is going to UVA. I believe UVA only gets about $150 million from the state, or 10% of the state’s total higher education budget. So really, Mom, Dad, and Junior have only paid $1,000 to UVA over the 18 years from Junior’s birth until his matriculation. The rest is going to other state colleges and universities and community colleges to train the K-12 teachers and nurses and dental hygienists that the state deems vital to a civilized society; and some is going to community and vocational colleges to train and retrain workers that the state’s industries say they need to grow and expand and keep the state’s economy healthy and growing, so they can continue to contribute their share of taxes. Your tax contribution isn’t like an individual retirement account that you pay into annually and withdraw when you send your kid to college. It’s just general tax revenue that supports lots of things the state deems vital, and that you indirectly benefit from.</p>
<p>It’s also easily demonstrated that public universities don’t just look at their state appropriation and discount in-state tuition by a like amount. Typically the state appropriation represents just a fraction of the in-state tuition discount. UVA is about 64% in-state, 26% OOS/International, so that’s about 10,088 in-state and 4,098 OOS/International undergrads. Then, assuming no discounting through FA, UVA collects about $156 million in OOS/International tuition, and about $121 million in in-state tuition. But if it charged in-state students the full OOS rate, it would pull in an additional $262 million in in-state tuition. So in effect, in exchange for a state appropriation of $150 million, UVA is giving its in-state students tuition discounts worth $262 million.</p>
<p>As I said, most people vastly overestimate the degree to which they support their public universities through taxation.</p>
<p>bclintonk–again-the student from Washington could have gone instate in WA and not paid the higher cost, out of state tuition in CA. The student made a choice. No one was forcing her to go to that school, which is really the point. She had the same option in her state to go to an instate tuition for a reduced fee and she did not, end of story.</p>
<p>bclintonk,</p>
<p>My cynical view is that IS residents get a big tuition discount, not because they have contributed commensurate tax revenue to make up the gap between IS vs. OSS tuition, but because they are voters. OOS & int’l residents are not members of the constituency that state legislators need to pander to.</p>
<p>We had the chance to compare real costs because the University of Michigan accidentally had my daughter listed as a non-resident when she first received her financial aid package. I called immediately and they corrected it, withdrew most of the grant they were giving her and my expected family contribution was exactly the same. </p>
<p>Exactly the same.</p>
<p>She went to Barnard for the almost the same price that she would have paid at Michigan.</p>
<p>^^ Sticking with UVA a moment:</p>
<p>UVA Academic Budget: $1,400,000
UVA Number of Students: 24,297
UVA Cost/Student: $57,620 </p>
<p>[Operating</a> Budget: University of Virginia Budget Office](<a href=“http://www.virginia.edu/budget/operatingbudget.html]Operating”>http://www.virginia.edu/budget/operatingbudget.html)
[How</a> many students go to University of Virginia-Main Campus in Charlottesville, Virginia?](<a href=“http://colleges.findthebest.com/q/4437/22/How-many-students-go-to-University-of-Virginia-Main-Campus-in-Charlottesville-Virginia]How”>http://colleges.findthebest.com/q/4437/22/How-many-students-go-to-University-of-Virginia-Main-Campus-in-Charlottesville-Virginia)</p>
<p>@BarnardMom,</p>
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because that is what you are EXPECTED to pay, not what you can AFFORD to pay</p>
<p>I don’t have a problem with instate out of state because with the rare exception it is unilaterally applied. Every kid, with the exception perhaps of those living abroad, graduates from high school in one state. Some states are generous and if you are ten miles away from the border you get counted for 2 states and some states are more restrictive, but the concept of in state and out of state is pretty much applied by some way shape or form by all states. How the states apportion taxes and how that relates to what people pay is always fascinating and bclintock is a fabulous analyst, but for me I am happy keeping the concept simple.</p>
<p>Now privates are a whole nother story and to some extent it’s supply and demand coupled with whatever business strategy the college has. Definitely more complex than in the sixties and early seventies, but market conditions will drive business strategy which will ultimately drive what they actually ask parents to pay. Up until recently people were willing to pony up with only minor hand wringing. The past couple years have been the first time there has been any rumblings about cost/value. Cost/value perception will drive the market conditions, drive the business strategy and ultimately drive the pricing in a very simplistic view. The gap has narrowed greatly between what people actually pay for a private education and what they pay for a public education. That I find very interesting. </p>
<p>Finally when I read kids posting on the IS vs. out of state I think the K-12 education is sadly lacking in teaching separation of power 
and powers given to the states and powers given to the feds. But I tend to side that the “vote” is more powerful than the tax ramifications.</p>
<p>“But I tend to side that the “vote” is more powerful than the tax ramifications.”</p>
<p>Well yeah. How long would the VA Governor stay in office if the University became “state-blind” in admissions? (You do realize OOS applicants generally have much better stats that IS applicants, right?) Maybe the Post could do a special article: “The last Virginia resident at UVA.”</p>
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<p>That is an oft quoted statement, but I find that entirely incidental and from most reports it is a negligible difference over four years. If kids want to travel to another state or come from another country and are willing to pay the upcharge, I have no problem with that as that is their prerogative. People have been coming to Michigan from NY and a few other spots since my dad was a young man and a student…his “roommate” in his room at the Union was from NY. There was an article recently that there was an uptick in NY kids going to Indiana…whatever floats your boat. Unlike Virginia, Michigan doesn’t promise to meet need for out of state kids and no aid for internationals. Virginia has a ‘tougher’ sell to their constituents.</p>
<p>I thought I’d speak to the assertion that the OP made… liberal arts major subsidize science and technology majors, freshman and sophomores subsidize juniors and seniors. At University of Michigan, where my son is a sophomore but has junior status due to AP credits, etc., students in the College of Engineering pay higher tuition than students in most other majors, and, now that my son is considered a junior, he’s at upper level tuition. Double whammy.</p>
<p>We are in-state, so tuition is not as bad for us as it is for many out-of-staters. The OOS students, however, have made the financial decision to stomach the very large bill and go to Michigan. “Buying” your college education, IMO, should be thought of as a business decision and ROI. Amazingly, thousands of OOS kids every year are pounding at the door for the opportunity to spend $50,000+/year at Michigan. Supply and demand, I suppose. They are making a choice, and it is a choice that benefits those of us in-state the most. We, too, looked at an out-of-state option, but it did not make financial sense at all; therefore, the colleges looked at most seriously by my son were in-state and the most affordable for us.</p>
<p>"(You do realize OOS applicants generally have much better stats that IS applicants, right?)"</p>
<p>Actually, our family has personal experience to back this statement up. Wait-listed with stats above the 90th percentile of the University’s admitted students. Understandable, given the demand for admission to Public Ivys and the limited slots available to OOS students.</p>
<p>Regardless, I don’t think it politically advantageous for Virginia’s Governor to be telling IS kids that a 1300 SAT (M+R) and 3.7 GPA is no longer good enough to get into their flagship universities because those schools have been flooded with high-stat kids from NY & Boston Metro areas.</p>
<p>We live in a highly rated California school district. Parents of students from outside the district often send their kids to our district because of its reputation, then vote down their own school budgets (since it no longer affects them). Their houses cost less and if they are renters, they pay less in rent. I think this is mostly unfair.</p>
<p>I think it’s mostly fair that OOS kids pay higher tuition. It’s not just the direct tax money that instaters may pay that goes to the UCs, but also the whole dang cost of living here. Your own state schools give you a break, why not take advantage of that? And if you don’t think your schools are good enough, as voters in your state you should be doing something to raise them higher.</p>
<p>You can always cite one case in which the above seem unfair. But I think for the majority, it works out.</p>
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<p>The true gain, from the state government’s point of view, is that the in-state student is likely to stay in the state after graduation and use his/her education to grow the economy by more than just his/her own increased earnings (i.e. what s/he does will also make other people wealthier because of his/her spending or work activity), leading to increased tax revenue for the government.</p>
<p>Out of state students are less likely to stay and help the state economy after graduation, although some states with public universities with low out of state prices may be using them to try to attract out of state students to study with the possibility of staying after graduation.</p>
<p>International students are least likely to stay and help the state economy after graduation, because they would need to get work visas at the very least (and not necessarily gain longer term residency or citizenship).</p>
<p>Speaking of the NY students coming to Indiana, that was partly due to very generous merit aid given to OOS students. The merit aid was reduced this year, and there are serious discussions about reducing it further. Indiana has a brain drain, with only 1 in 6 college graduates staying in the state after attaining their degree. The hope was that talented OOS students would stay to contribute to the region. It did not happen and our IS students are now feeling that their spots into the business school are going to those who will not benefit Indiana. It will be interesting to see if policies will change to reflect these concerns and if the business school would still be considered prestigious if it the graduates don’t go to NY, Chicago or LA after school but stay in Indianapolis to create jobs. </p>
<p>(I say this with no real concern either way. I would rather my tax dollars not subsidize OOS students, but I have no problem with OOS students attending the school).</p>
<p>Here are some more statistics that I found regrading a brain drain. NJ is well known as a brain drain state. My kids were part of those statistics. </p>
<p>[Stop</a> N.J. ‘brain drain:’ Let’s keep college students in state | NJ.com](<a href=“http://blog.nj.com/njv_guest_blog/2012/04/stop_nj_brain_drains_lets_keep.html]Stop”>Stop N.J. 'brain drain:' Let's keep college students in state - nj.com)</p>
<p>My younger son applied to one instate U, but we could not afford to send him there! There wasn’t a dime of grant money (merit or financial) offered. The school sells this by stating that an instate student “already got their scholarship” because of instate tuition. We quietly just voted with our feet. We found a few private universities costing us less than our public instate school (after merit and/or financial aid). Our son left NJ and I doubt that he will ever move back to the state that he grew up in. He is very happy in the state where is currently going to school.</p>
<p>northeastmom–Same situation in our state-very little merit money for kids and even without merit money, neighboring states have lower costs for our students. Our kids are not applying to any instate state schools. I can see our kids coming back “home” after college though as the job market is pretty good here.</p>
<p>Our son found a job near his school over the summer. It was nothing spectacular, but a job which supported him while he also worked an internship. </p>
<p>He is currently a junior. Over the summer he found a PAID internship! He began the paid internship about 3 weeks ago. I guess he believes that his job prospects will be just fine where he is currently residing. He just has no intention of returning to NJ.</p>
<p>The most important mission of most state universities is, and should be, to educate the students in that state. There are universities that are run on a federal level – the U.S. military academies and the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. Those are options for students who want to attend a national university. State level universities, however, do not serve the same purpose.</p>
<p>For example, in North Carolina, Article IX, Section 9 of the State Constitution says that “The General Assembly shall provide that the benefits of The University of North Carolina and other public institutions of higher education, as far as practicable, be extended to the people of the State free of expense.” The primary purpose is to educate the people of the State at as low a cost as possible, not to educate the people of the Nation at as low a cost as possible. That is why in North Carolina there is an 18% cap on out-of-state students in public universities and why tuition is higher for those students. Practically speaking, most of them spend a year or two paying out-of-state tuition then claim residency status. They are still, eventually, getting the benefit of in-state tuition.</p>
<p>I wouldn’t expect to pay in-state tuition for my child at UVA or at any other state’s university. I certainly wouldn’t complain about it or even think that I had the right to do so.</p>