Emory takes close 40 percent test optional, that’s pretty close to the rates of the historically test optional schools.
I agree with this. Wake actually gets the kids with better stats at our high school compared to Emory (by stats, I mean relative class rank, our school weighs for rigor). Both are great schools but different. Wake tends to get the extroverts and Emory the introverts.
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% may be one way to determine “how test optional” a school might really be, but for me, it has become whether the test optional applicant needs to be stronger to gain admittance without the tests. Traditional test optional schools like Bowdoin have never felt that way.
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Last year Emory’s Dean said there is too much grade inflation since COVID and it’s too hard to assess if a 4.0 is really a 4.0 GPA. He said they would be looking more closely at AP scores in the absence of standardized test scores to understand students preparedness. Source: Chronicle of Higher Education (IIRC)
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Here is an idea - instead of looking more closely at AP exam scores and other creative ways to deal with the grade inflation problem, maybe they should just require SAT or ACT scores, lol
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Of course part of the problem is the subject matter knowledge and skills tested by the SAT/ACT are not at the “Advanced” level.
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What do you mean? 40% of their admits are TO, so they were somehow strong AP subject matter experts but didn’t score high enough on the standardized tests to submit them?
So that is a funny way to put it, but yes, I think usually unhooked test optional admits to a college like Emory will have gotten high grades in advanced classes, which would include AP classes in cases where the secondary school in question offers a lot of advanced classes in the form of AP classes (not all do, of course).
What I understand various college officials to have expressed recently is that they are concerned that these days too many kids are getting As in their AP classes without actually being taught and evaluated in a way consistent with those high grades. So they are at least sometimes looking for AP scores to help validate those high grades.
My understanding is this is not really a substitute for a high grade–like they would still be concerned about a C in the class even if you got a 5 on the test. But now they are increasingly likely to be concerned about a person who does not submit a test score even if they have an A in the class.
Of course none of this applies to applicants from secondary schools where the advanced classes are not APs. So A Levels, IBs, the sorts of non-AP advanced classes various privates and a few publics offer . . . in cases like that they will obviously not expect AP test scores.
What I was pointing out is just that the SAT and ACT do not test for knowledge and skills at this advanced level. So if, say, a college is concerned that your A in AP US History, AP Calc AB, or so on may not mean what it should mean when you do not submit a corresponding high AP test score, submitting a high SAT/ACT instead is not really going to address that specific problem. Because the SAT and ACT don’t test for that sort of thing.
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I think you make a good argument for what colleges should be doing, but I don’t see any evidence that Emory, or any college, is actually doing so. Emory actually seems to be more willing to go reach further down in the class at our private than schools that are commonly considered its peers (for example, Wash U and Tufts seem to stick to top 20 percent of class).
So according to Emory’s 2023-24 CDS, 83.9% of enrolled students reporting rank were top 10%, and 73.8% had at least a 3.75 GPA.
Of course the statistics for your private school may be different, but then also what these colleges are talking about in terms of being less trusting of AP class grades these days may simply be inapplicable to your private school.
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sounds like your experiences with Emory are unique for whatever reason.
There are many schools where a 3.75 or even a 3.8 is not the top 20 percent of the class. The class rank percentages in the cds are kind of meaningless when so many high schools don’t rank. I’m not saying Emory isn’t a very good school, it just is less selective in our area than schools it considers to be peer schools.
Does Emory report Oxford campus data separately?
Emory CDS data includes Oxford college (Oxford is one of their four undergrad colleges, other three are college of arts and sciences, Goizueta, and school of nursing).
You can see some stats broken out by Emory and Oxford here: Dashboard—Admissions and First-Time Cohort | Emory University | Atlanta GA
I will note that in total, only 20.5% of students reported a rank, and we don’t know how GPAs are calculated for the CDS and/or Dashboard. Further, those GPAs might not be calculated the same way as they are during the admissions process (if they are recalculated/converted in the admissions process)
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I am in fact entirely sure Emory does not simply take school-reported GPAs at face value for comparative purposes, which in fact was part of the background for the original point we were discussing above.
To the extent I understand what we are currently discussing (and it is possible I do not), it seems to have been triggered by my comment, “I think usually unhooked test optional admits to a college like Emory will have gotten high grades in advanced classes.”
I was intentionally not overly specific with what that would mean in any individual case, because I think it really does depend on the context of the high school.
And I would agree we should not take the CDS data I cited as being representative of each high school’s observable results. Instead, it is indeed only a partial sample, and then on top of that each individual high school could vary.
But as I would put it, I do think their CDS data is consistent with what I suggested, understanding that suggestion was intentionally flexible to begin with.
I dont think anyone was worried whether you thought Emory was a good school or not. Of its peer schools Emory tends to have a higher test submit rate, higher than Vandy, WashU, Notre Dame and I beileve CMU(could be wrong). Thats along with a 1520/34 median test score, higher than Notre Dame, Georgetown, the publics etc. Also of its peers Emory seems fairly vocal of its distaste of TO so its likely the practice eill end in the coming years. Either way although your particular school or district may be different. The avg Wake forest student or any student at schools 1 or 2 tiers below Emory, cannot get into Emory. And thats fairly evident in my neck of the woods the DMV area.
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Per the 23/24 CDS, the medians are 1500/33 for Emory. 1450/33 for Wake. I don’t think that means in any way that the “average Wake Forest student cannot get into Emory”. The schools just appeal to different types of applicants, including demographically.
From the dashboard posted above its a 1520/34. The CDS is a year behind.
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The median section scores in that graphic are the same for 2023 and 2024. Note that adding the median section scores does not exactly produce the median composite (1500) reported in the 23-24 (fall 2023) CDS. The 2024 median composite may or may not turn out to be 1500 as well; a few more students submitted SAT for 2024.
Lots written here on Emory vs Wake with differences of opinion, it seems. Setting the record straight… there is considerable overlap between the two colleges, but Emory students tend to be just a hair stronger. Dig deeply and the data should support just that.
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