<p>As a devout Catholic who is often confronted with ignorance combined with prejudice, it is nice to see a civil conversation with answers that are in agreement with doctrine.</p>
<p>Thank you mom2collegekids, nicksmtmom, and pipmom</p>
<p>Sorry for implying I thought Catholicism is an ethnic group. I was merely trying to keep the thread title concise. I never thought it would prompt some people to try to revoke my poetic license.</p>
<p>In post#4 I gave “drinking too much” as an example of the type of concern I was looking for. As some have pointed out, I was offering this up as an example of the TYPE of issues I was looking for…I was NOT making that specific accusation myself (even though I am myself a Catholic who drinks too much).</p>
<p>I certainly didn’t mean for this thread to turn into a religious war…I have 2 Catholic kids in their early teens, and so far they have lived all of their lives in provincial Spain (where non-Catholics are fairly rare), and in a Detroit suburb where there are significant numbers of Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Jains, etc., and they all get along surprisingly well. I was merely looking for an up-to-date list of concerns they might run into if they went to colleges where their Catholicism might be more of an issue than it’s been so far in their lives.</p>
<p>^Agree with tmos67 - this has turned out to be a great thread. I was raised an Episcopalian, married and converted to Judaism (Reform), worked at a Catholic school, and I have learned a lot here. Special thanks to ICargirl (I never knew what exactly was prohibited on the Sabbath and why), and pipmom and others on Catholic annullments - now I understand why it was necessary, before my Catholic friend’s marriage, for her divorced, Catholic husband to get an annullment of his first marriage to a Jewish women. Talk about awkward…</p>
<p>As a Catholic I think I can clear up what may appear to be cliquish.</p>
<p>1) Many Catholics are of an ethnic group…Irish, Italian, Polish, German, Hispanic, French, Vietnamese, etc. When their people came to the US, they tended to cluster in neighborhoods - often near their own ethnic Catholic church. That is how my H grew up in an Irish and Polish neighborhood in the Chicago area where nearly every home was Catholic. </p>
<p>2) For decades, Catholic parents sent their kids to Catholic schools. So, your life wasn’t just being around Catholics on Sunday, but all week long. </p>
<p>3) It has always been assumed that it’s easier if a Catholic marries another Catholic, so families tended to make sure their Catholic young adult children were around a lot of other Catholics. My Irish MIL was sent to St. Mary’s College near Notre Dame for one reason - to marry a Notre Dame grad (this is when those schools were single sex). </p>
<p>4) Sometimes it’s just easier to be around people of one’s own faith. Little “explaining” to do, little defending to do, etc.</p>
<p>I now live in Alabama where it’s assumed that there are few Catholics…which is true. There are entire counties here without a Catholic Church, which is unheard of in California where I’m from.</p>
<p>However, there are clusters of Catholics here. Around Mobile, there are many Catholics because of the influence of New Orleans. Around Birmingham, there are many Italians. In Cullman, there are a lot of German Catholics. Where I live, there are many Catholics because of the Army base and because of Cummings Research Park - both of which brought in a lot of transplants from areas in the US where there are a lot of Catholics (St. Louis, Chicago, NY, Calif, Maryland, etc). In Tuscaloosa, there are a lot of Catholics because of the university.</p>
<p>My point is that Catholics tend to cluster in areas. That’s not so unusual. I’ve been in areas where Greek Orthodox families cluster, where Jewish families cluster, etc.</p>
<p>I notice extremely little cohesion among Catholics. I think the national ancestry is far more important re cohesion, but even that is iffy. In WWII, lots of American Catholics of German and Italian ancestry didn’t hesitate to kill their Axis bretheren.</p>
<p>Rivalries I’ve seen in East Coast cities reflect what I’ve seen in movies:
“State of Grace” and “Unforgiven” (Irish Catholics vs. Italian Catholics); “Saturday Night Fever” (Italian Catholics vs. Puerto Rican Catholics); “West Side Story” (Puerto Rican Catholics (the Sharks) vs. Irish/Italian/Polish Catholics (the Jets)</p>
<p>Seeking clarification/information, here–not judging. If a Catholic marries outside the church, is married for several years, has children and eventually divorces, can that person marry again IN the church without an annulment? Is this a marriage recognized by the church? The annulment piece confuses me as I can’t imagine how children must feel being the result of an ‘invalid’ marriage. State of mind at the time of marriage can’t make those kids feel ‘valid’.</p>
<p>This one’s about taking communion in a Catholic church as a non-Catholic. I (non-catholic) attended a funeral mass recently with my Catholic cousin and she told me she was offended that non-Catholics took part in communion. I always thought that would be between the individual and god. Is this just her opinion or do other Catholics agree that this would be offensive?</p>
<p>…very informative thread!</p>
<p>My understanding is that the Catholic church does not recognize a marriage not in the Catholic church. Hopefully some posters well versed in Catholicism will post. I don’t know if the ceremony has actually has to be “in” the church–what happens if two Catholics, no previous marriages, are married by a priest in an outdoor garden ceremony?</p>
<p>Correction…the Catholic Church does not recognize the marriage of a CATHOLIC who is not married in the Catholic church (without special permission). The Church certainly recognizes the marriages of non-Catholics who are married wherever - home, garden, city hall, wherever. However, if the non-Catholic is marrying a Catholic, then the Church expects the wedding to be in a Catholic Church (unless special permission is granted).</p>
<p>Catholics need special permission to marry outside in a garden or in a home, etc. Catholics are expected to marry in a Catholic Church. Special permission is need to hold the wedding elsewhere.</p>
<p>Catholics believe it is literally the body and blood of Christ, while protestants don’t. Some denominations are allowed to partake in communion; however, most are not because they believe it only represents the body and blood of Christ.</p>
<p>*If a Catholic marries outside the church, is married for several years, has children and eventually divorces, can that person marry again IN the church without an annulment? Is this a marriage recognized by the church? *</p>
<p>A full annulment is not needed. However, proof needs to be provided that the invalid marriage lacked the correct form and therefore wasn’t valid. </p>
<p>*The annulment piece confuses me as I can’t imagine how children must feel being the result of an ‘invalid’ marriage.<br>
*</p>
<p>I’ve never heard of children really feeling bad about a marriage being declared sacramentally invalid. Kids are FAR more negatively affected by divorce (that takes place regardless of one’s religion). Think about it. Annulments happen long after a divorce occurs - the children would be upset by the divorce, not this later declaration.</p>
<p>The marriage was still a civil marriage - the children are not considered to be illegitimate. </p>
<p>State of mind at the time of marriage can’t make those kids feel ‘valid’.</p>
<p>I’m not sure what you mean by that. State of mind at the time of the wedding is everything. If a person not entering the marriage with the proper intent, then the sacrament didn’t take place. Keep in mind that the couple are the ministers of the sacrament. It takes two. If one is unable to minister the sacrament because of his/her state of mind, then there is no sacrament.</p>
<p>This one’s about taking communion in a Catholic church as a non-Catholic. I (non-catholic) attended a funeral mass recently with my Catholic cousin and she told me she was offended that non-Catholics took part in communion. I always thought that would be between the individual and god. Is this just her opinion or do other Catholics agree that this would be offensive?</p>
<p>This is a Church rule. A priest is supposed to make an announcement at some point during weddings/funerals that non-Catholics are welcome to come up for a blessing and to indicate that by folding one’s arms. </p>
<p>As said above…Catholics believe that Communion is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Therefore, it isn’t right for non-Catholics to receive. The Host is presented with the words, “The Body of Christ” and the recipient says, “Amen.” (which means, I believe). Obviously those who don’t believe that shouldn’t receive.</p>
<p>Orthodox Christians share the same belief therefore it is less of a problem for them to receive Communion in a Catholic Church - however, it’s still not recommended because Communion is also a sign of unity with the Church…and the Orthodox Church is still (unfortunately) our separated sister church…hopefully not for long.</p>
<p>*I did do some preliminary research into annulment. The subject was also confusing to me. I agree with the above poster on the voided of contract type issue: e.g., at least in my circumstance (H1 left us), that H1 hadn’t entered into marriage with the proper intents and the marriage could therefore be annuled (vast over-simplification). *</p>
<p>Not really an over-simplification. That’s exactly would be the grounds. If your H1 abandoned the family because he didn’t want to deal with family responsibilities then that is a strong indication that he didn’t enter the marriage with the proper intent of a husband and future parent. </p>
<p>I have been a witness for three people’s annulments. One is the case I mentioned earlier about the husband who later announced that he didn’t want kids. That was an easy one. Another one involved showing that even during the engagement the husband had not been faithful to his future wife (which was unknown to her at the time). The third one was more complicated because it involved demonstrating that the husband didn’t enter the marriage with the intent of “thinking like a couple” in regards to plans, spending money, spending time with his spouse, etc. (it was like he really wanted a roommate with benefits). That took a lot of witnesses who had witnessed various instances that occurred around the time of the wedding…including making an unaffordable and VERY expensive (over $25k) purchase that was only exclusively for him without mentioning it beforehand. </p>
<p>The annulment process is not an easy one. There are at least 3 canon lawyers assigned…one for each ex-spouse and one to represent the marriage. The person who is seeking the annulment must provide witnesses who knew the couple quite well at the time of the wedding. There are many exaggerations that the Church makes money over these things, but in reality each annulment is a financial loss for the diocese. There’s no way that that the cost a person pays covers the cost of 3 lawyers and the entire process.</p>
<p>Changing the subject from Catholic weddings:</p>
<p>I have a friend who is marrying into a Messianic Jewish family. His future wife keeps a Kosher household. Besides the obvious, (Jesus), what is different in her beliefs and practices? when we visit them… what should we expect and do or not do?</p>
<p>Hmmm, I ( a non-Catholic) married my husband (Catholic) in a Presbyterian church with a priest and minister doing a sort of tag team ceremony. We had no special dispensation. I think a lot depends on the area where one lives. Our children were raised Catholic. The oldest is marrying a Methodist and the youngest is very open minded so who knows who she will end up with. As long as they are happy and treated well, I am happy.</p>
<p>Is there honestly any difference between a long-retroactive annulment of a marriage and a divorce? </p>
<p>And how much does an annulment cost?</p>
<p>dragonmom, I can’t answer your question, but I will tell you that a great many Jewish people I know (including myself!) do not believe that so-called Messianic Jews are Jews, whatever they choose to call themselves. I don’t want to start an argument, but so far as I’m concerned, they’re Christians. Who once were Jews. Which is fine, but but doesn’t mean they’re still Jews, or should appropriate that term to fit their religious beliefs.</p>
<p>Hmmm, I ( a non-Catholic) married my husband (Catholic) in a Presbyterian church with a priest and minister doing a sort of tag team ceremony. We had no special dispensation.</p>
<p>The priest who was present got the dispensation for you - doing such a thing is not a huge deal - just some paperwork sent to the bishop’s office. The priest may have mentioned it to you or he may not have. That priest was the Church’s witness to your wedding.</p>
<p>Believe me, it doesn’t depend on where you live. There is Canon Law that must be followed. And, many procedures are worldwide - especially those that have to do with sacraments/weddings. The Church has set procedures - even for those who marry in the military by a chaplain or in various countries. There’s a lot that goes on “behind the scenes” that the bridal couple is not aware of. Even the church where your H was baptized was notified and the marriage was recorded on the back of his official baptismal record (which is kept at his baptismal church). That is how the Church keeps track of who has been validly married. If one’s baptismal church is no longer in existence, then the record is kept at that diocese. </p>
<p>*Is there honestly any difference between a long-retroactive annulment of a marriage and a divorce?</p>
<p>And how much does an annulment cost?*</p>
<p>Absolutely. A divorce is a civil matter. In many states, no reason is even needed. Annulments aren’t granted because people “fall out of love” or “aren’t happy anymore” or start cheating after many years of marriage. The impediment for a valid marriage has to be present at the time of the wedding. </p>
<p>As for annulments…not everyone who seeks an annulment is granted one. And, even if one is granted, it doesn’t mean that both parties are now free to marry again in the Church (that is often a surprise to many). The annulment can mean that only one of the spouses can remarry. Obviously, if the reason for the annulment is so severe that one spouse can never be validly married in the future, then that person can’t have another Catholic wedding. For instance, if the reason for the annulment is that one spouse was too mentally ill at the time of the marriage to be able to properly consent and is still mentally ill, then that person could not enter another Catholic marriage because the impediment is still there.</p>
<p>Also, the Church is very adamant that it cannot dissolve a valid marriage. The sad thing is that there are many marriages that are found to be invalid simply because one or both parties did not enter the marriage with the intent of having a Catholic marriage (and how that is defined). </p>
<p>As for the costs. Each diocese is different, but nearly every diocese charges a sliding scale based on affordability and nearly every diocese takes a financial loss on annulments. However, the cost can range from $200 - 1500. That isn’t much when you consider that there are 3 canon lawyers involved and each annulment is sent to another diocese for review after completion. The home diocese pays most of the costs.</p>
<p>Just a point to add to mom2’s excellent posts- one of the reasons the costs for an annullment mount up is the amount of communication between all parties and witnesses that needs to take place. I know here in Houston, a lot of the communication is international- to Latin America or Nigeria or Vietnam- so that costs of mail and telephone calls is significant. But, even if there is not an international situation, there are still costs associated with calls/letters, searching church records, locating witnesses, etc.</p>
<p>As a life-long Catholic, I’d just like to add that those who know all the details of annullments and the rules for marrying non-Catholics are not typical. Most of us haven’t spent 5 seconds studying that stuff. I’m glad some people do study such things, so that questions on these topics can be answered accurately; I just don’t want people to get the idea that being Catholic involves the religious equivalent of passing a bar exam.</p>
<p>@dragonmom, Re: “Messianic Jews” and their kosher kitchen:
</p>
<p>They’re winging it. Ask the cook before you come what you should bring or not. Don’t try to get sensical answers from the Jewish community about the kosher practices of “Messianic Jews” because, as DonnaL said, they are practicing Christians who add on some hallmark features from Jewish tradition. The big divider line – that they embrace Jesus as Messiah – puts them outside the bounds of every Jewish movement, from Reform to Orthodox. </p>
<p>Repeat: they’re winging it. So ask them and understand whatever they answer has no connection to what Jews do in their kitchens, homes and worship services.</p>
<p>My best guess is, if it’s a pot-luck dinner for example, they will tell you not to bring anything with pork/ham/bacon (in other words, if it ever said “oink”). Don’t bring shellfish (clams, oysters, crabs, lobsters…) but groundfish ok (e.g., carp, cod, haddock). Don’t combine milk-and-meat in a casserole dish (e.g. meat lasagna with cheese). As to whether they want you to buy kosher meat to cook (assuming it’s a potluck), you’re best off not to deal with meat but bring a side-dish salad of fresh green vegetables, using a brand new aluminum foil pan or a paper plate/platter, rather than on your own home dishes. Use serving tongs from her kitchen, not yours. Again, ask them.</p>
<p>If they are cooking for you, they’ll do it as they see fit and you just use the usual good manners at the dinner table. </p>
<p>If you bring a small hostess gift for dinnner, I’d suggest it be non-edible to avoid every dilemma.</p>