Ask your (non-rhetorical) ethnic questions here.

Parent Cafe
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<p>"What are the major beefs non-Catholics have with Catholics these days? Like if your son or daughter started dating a Catholic, what would your concerns be? I know that in decades past, one of the beefs was that Catholics had a reputation for having lots of children, but that doesn’t seem to true any more.</p>

<p>I hope this thread will be used for the calm exchange of info, and doesn’t devolve into accusations of various types."</p>

<p>Ethnic question? I think not. More like an invitation to a Catholic bashing party. I was certainly surprised when I opened this thread. I thought it would be questions about different ethnic customs and a learning experience and indeed it does attempt to open up a dialogue with question 1. It’s question 2 that is inflammatory and negative from the start. </p>

<p>“I was thinking more along the lines of things that you’d be wary of if your kids became friends with them or dated them (e.g., they seem to drink too much).” Ignorant and prejudicial. And others chime in.</p>

<p>I like mom2collegekids, DonnaL #27, pipmom (LOL re the seminarian) and others.</p>

<p>I dislike much of what I’ve read and the secondary concept of the thread. It saddens me.</p>

42

<p>^ @Sandkmom, I have been monitoring this thread very closely to ensure it stays within Terms of Service in every post. Following my redirect in Post #21, it has stayed on track.</p>

43

<p>It looks like Mom2collegekids has misunderstood my post(her post 20).
I tried to write as carefully as I could to be an objective poster, so any reader would understand that I was writing how some feel about Catholics. I thought I made it very clear that I wasn’t saying it was a fact in the Catholic denomination(referring to confessions), but rather was what some believed about Catholics. I am NOT saying any Catholic has that philosophy, or that they don’t, I am saying some other people feel they do. Does that clear it up, I hope? Mom2CK?</p>

<p>Mom2K also misunderstood the second topic. Asking a friend to pray to God for your ailing S(for example) is different than praying to a man or woman(dead saints) on the belief that they will pass the message on to God for you. The key is- who do we pray to? Many Protestants believe praying should be to God, not man. So in their eyes, don’t pray to Peter(for example) that you will have a safe journey, in hopes he will ask God on your behalf- rather, pray to God for a safe journey. I make no judgment on the right or wrong of either philosophy; I only state that both exist.</p>

<p>I don’t know, but I get the impression MoM2CK is a Catholic and is so desirous of defending her religion that she has read my post without enough care and has jumped in to defend it. Sadly, she is disagreeing with a position that she mistakenly thinks I have written.</p>

<p>I don’t mind if someone disagrees with me, but please, understand what I’m saying before one disagrees. How else can one know if they disagree?</p>

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<p>Just to be clear, “Mami” does not translate into English as “Mommy”, although they are pronounced almost exactly the same. As far as I know, nowhere in the Spanish-speaking world is “Mami” or “Mamita” used to refer to a mother as such. I think “Mami” is specifically a Caribbean usage, though. I think it serves the same function “Baby” or “Babe” does in colloquial English, with the difference that we do, in fact, sometimes refer to an infant as “baby”, wheras “mami” merely evokes “mama”/“mamacita” (which DOES get used both as an affectionate term for a mother and in the “baby, baby” sense). My guess is that both “mami” and “mamita” were originally contractions of “mamacita”.</p>

45

<p>The topic in #31 prompts me to ask this one: Is it true the Catholic church doesn’t recognize a marriage that doesn’t take place in a church? To a non-Catholic? What if the wedding is in another church? </p>

<p>Annulments are also very confusing to me…How can a marriage be declared invalid, even when there are children who’ve come from that marriage?</p>

<p>I appreciate the opportunity to ask these questions.</p>

46

<p>Raised presbyterian, married and converted to judaism, work in an episcopal school - we grow by sharing our strengths not by isolating and denigrating others views.</p>

47

<p>pipmom, One of my friends in college had a good friend who was studying at a nearby seminary. We got together with him and some of the other seminarians every now and then. My college roommate still laughs about the time she came home to find my friend and I, along with 6 brothers, singing, playing guitar, and drinking wine in the living room. They were a fun group and we certainly felt secure that they were “just friends”, although the guy we knew used to tell us that the 3 knots on his belt stood for obedience, poverty, and chastity - with the last knot being a slip knot. He never became a priest, but is still a very devout catholic. You may not want a seminarian for your daughter, but one that didn’t quite make it could be a good catch.</p>

48

<p>Many religions, including Catholicism, Islam, and Judaism, have well-developed systems of law that have existed for centuries parallel to political authority – often complementary to it, especially if the religion is the established state religion, but sometimes in conflict with it. And of course there were entire centuries when “political” law and legal systems barely existed, and religious law was what “law” meant.</p>

<p>And often, in countries with established churches (meaning, until fairly recently, almost everywhere), political law deferred to religious law on certain questions, especially family law ones like the validity of marriages. So it is hardly a surprise that the Catholic church has an elaborate, many-centuries-old system of law and doctrine for determining whether marriages are valid, OR that that system doesn’t have an elaborate idea of what to do when dealing with a marriage that has been sanctioned by some non-religious source authority (especially a marriage involving one or both Catholic partners). I’m not certain how the Church regards marriages between two non-Catholics, but it has long taken the position that for a Catholic to be validly married, it has to be a valid Catholic marriage, and it CAN (but doesn’t HAVE to) be a valid civil marriage, too.</p>

<p>The position on annulment follows directly from that. A purported marriage that, for one reason or another, is not a valid marriage under Church law is not a valid marriage, even if it has produced children. (The Church recognizes, of course, that a valid marriage is not, as a matter of fact, not ethics, a precondition to the conception and birth of children.) As I understand them, many of the grounds for annulment under canon law are not so different from the grounds for voiding all sorts of contracts under civil law: mainly fraud of various sorts by one or both partners.</p>

49

<p>deb922 - Amish do not attend school past 8th grade. I live in a state with a high Amish population. I live close to that area, and my immediate area has lots of German Baptists, which are also Old Order, but do drive black vans and use cell phones for work. They also attend to 8th grade. One boy in my class attended until our Jr. year, then dropped out, although he had the credits to graduate. He now runs his family’s successful HVAC business. I have known one German Baptist to graduate HS. Those are the only two people I’ve known to go past 8th grade.</p>

<p>Although some German Baptists and Amish attend public schools, many attend schools ran by their districts. I do not think the teachers are state certified. Emphasis is on the three R’s and the skills necessary to be successful in their community. Two professors at Goshen College in Indiana have specialized in studying the Amish community. I do think their elem. schools beat a lot of public schools in preparing students in the basics (their research bears this out.)</p>

50

<p>Masslou-My understanding is that the Catholic church does not recognize a marriage not in the Catholic church. Hopefully some posters well versed in Catholicism will post. I don’t know if the ceremony has actually has to be “in” the church–what happens if two Catholics, no previous marriages, are married by a priest in an outdoor garden ceremony?</p>

<p>I was not Catholic, married a Catholic in a Methodist church, and had been previously married, with children. For the first year I was married, my MIL called my H weekly and asked when were we “going to get our marriage” fixed? She also calls my H a “cafeteria Catholic” (which probably contributed to his marrying someone so unsuitable as myself :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>I did do some preliminary research into annulment. The subject was also confusing to me. I agree with the above poster on the voided of contract type issue: e.g., at least in my circumstance (H1 left us), that H1 hadn’t entered into marriage with the proper intents and the marriage could therefore be annuled (vast over-simplification).</p>

51

<p>

</p>

<p>The electrical circuit is considered equivalent to fire, lighting of which is prohibited.</p>

52

<p>My aunt was a widow in her early 40s. A few years later she met a divorced man she wished to marry. They could not marry in the Catholic Church until they got approval from Rome. I really don’t understand all the details, but it took many, many years to get approval.</p>

53

<p>I’ll try to answer the Catholic marriage questions:

  1. A Catholic must marry another person (whether Catholic or not) in the Church. This literally means in the church building, (or another sanctified place- like a chapel) married by a priest or deacon. If an outdoor wedding is desired, or one on a cruise ship, or if the couple wants another clergy member present as well as the priest or deacon, a dispensation from the bishop must be granted. (Such dispensations are not that hard to get if the presiding priest or deacon understands the reasons for it).
  2. If a Catholic has married in a civil-only ceremony, ( and neither has been previously married) their marriage must be convalidated in order to be recognized by the Church. Some people mistakenly call this “blessing the marriage”, but it is an actual wedding ceremony.
  3. Catholics consider the marriages of others to be valid- ie 2 Jews, 2 Protestants, 2 civilly marriage atheists, etc.
  4. Annullments are extremely complicated- folks study canon law for 4 years in order to become capable of deciding on annulments. Most canon lawyers are priests. Contrary to popular belief, very few annullments have to go to Rome. Most are decided by the tribunal office of one’s diocese or one’s metropolitan(several dioceses together under a tribunal).<br>
  5. Grounds for anulment vary. Granting an annullment means that the marriage being anulled has been found to be invalid. Since the presumption of the Church is always that a marriage is valid until proved otherwise- this is very difficult.
  6. The stickiest anullments are those that are sought for non- Catholic marriages. Example: a Catholic who has never been married, wants to marry a non- Catholic who is divorced. The non- Catholic marriage must be declared invalid before the person is free to marry the Catholic in a Catholic Church. This can get real dicey for folks who have been married and divorced multiple times.
  7. The only annullments that have to go to Rome are those that are called “Petrine” anullments. Example- a Catholic has married civilly a previously divorced non- Catholic, who now wishes to convert to Catholicism. The Petrine privilege is invoked, because without it, the non- Catholic could not become a Catholic in good standing.
  8. The declaration of annullment says nothing about the legitimacy of the offspring. </p>

<p>I hope this helps. Catholic marriage law is very complicated. I am not a canon lawyer, so I can’t comment on individual situations. I can attest that in our Archdiocese of Galveston-Houston, the average wait for an annullment is 2 years.</p>

54

<p>The topic in #31 prompts me to ask this one: Is it true the Catholic church doesn’t recognize a marriage that doesn’t take place in a church? To a non-Catholic? What if the wedding is in another church?</p>

<p>The Church does recognize marriages between a Catholic and non-Catholic. Catholic marriages are supposed to take place in a Catholic church with a priest or deacon present. Sometimes special permission is granted for the wedding to occur elsewhere. </p>

<p>Annulments are also very confusing to me…How can a marriage be declared invalid, even when there are children who’ve come from that marriage?</p>

<p>Annulments have nothing to do with whether the marriage was consummated (and children were born). Declaring a marriage to be invalid has to do with the state of mind of one or both persons at the time the wedding. </p>

<p>Sacramental marriage is defined in a certain way that if one (or both) person does not enter the marriage with the correct intent for a “Catholic marriage,” then the Church can find (through investigation) that a sacramental marriage never occurred. The Church teaches that the couple are the “ministers of the sacrament” and therefore a person’s intent and correct form must be present. If they are not, then it’s not valid.</p>

<p>For instance…say a person enters marriage with NO INTENTION of being faithful (which might be evidenced by immediate (or near immediate) infidelities. Then, in the Church’s view that person did not intend to enter into a Catholic marriage, and therefore God never “joined them together” in Holy Matrimony. </p>

<p>This can also be found with marriages where one or both had a very immature outlook about marriage - perhaps thought they could still hang out all the time with pals, spend large amounts of money without concern of other spouse, etc. Another reason can be when one person enters a marriage (when they are of child-bearing age) and he/she refuses to be open to children. Yes, that will mean a marriage is invalid. My friend received her annulment for that reason. Her husband informed her shortly after their marriage that he didn’t want kids…it was a super easy annulment for the church to grant. He obviously lied to the Church because that question is asked during the wedding (unless the couple is older). In the Church’s view, God never joined them together. </p>

<p>The Church does not like marrying pregnant brides anymore because too many of these weddings were later found to be invalid - if the only reason the couple got married is because of the pregnancy and/or family pressure. Nowadays, when a bride is pregnant, the Church wants some assurance from both bride and groom that they would have married regardless.</p>

<p>I don’t mind answering these questions. Church rules/doctrines/customs are easily explained.</p>

55

<p>2) ***Why do Hispanics call their children “Mami” or “Mamita”? (Mommy?) I think I’ve heard Indian people do this too. ***</p>

<p>Speaking from only my own experience, Turks and Arabs also do this…in the way of, a child saying Mom, can I have this, they will answer yes Mom. Fathers would say yes Dad…Why that is, I have no idea so that doesn’t help much I know.</p>

56

<p>And I will give a (feeble) attempt on the praying “to” the saints. I think that word is where the misunderstanding comes from. </p>

<p>Asking a saint to pray for you is very much like asking a friend to pray for you. You are NOT praying TO the saint. Catholics believe that those who have died have not simply disappeared into a high heaven never to be heard from again. Rather, we believe that our loved ones continue to pray for us and our children, separated from us not by a sky full of clouds and pearly gates, but rather a “thin veil” where they can still “see” us, and pray for us…even though they are not overly concerned for us in an earthly way anymore because they are totally content to be in God’s presence and praising Him forevermore.</p>

<p>All souls who reach heaven are saints (don’t get me started on pergatory…that is for another day!) but the saints most people refer to (St. Anthony, etc.) are the ones who lived lives so full of obedience and grace that they got it right here on earth, and were accepted directly into heaven. Their prayer for us, has been proven to produce miraculous results (that is part of the criteria for being named a saint) and many times that is where they get their “specialty” (St. Patrick for Ireland, St. Anthony for lost items, etc.)</p>

<p>The “communion of saints” is the saints praying with us (we ask their help like we would an earthly person) because we believe their prayer is extremely powerful as they are in God’s presence and full of His grace. </p>

<p>There is a similar misconception that we pray TO Mary…listen to the Hail Mary prayer and you will hear us ask her to “pray FOR us sinners, now and at the hour of our death…”</p>

<p>Pip…HELP! Hard to fit 2000 years of theology into a readable bite, do I have it about right?</p>

<p>I’m glad this thread veered away from the ugly turn it was taking…I love learning about other cultures, but let’s keep the gloves on!</p>

57

<p>My aunt was a widow in her early 40s. A few years later she met a divorced man she wished to marry. They could not marry in the Catholic Church until they got approval from Rome. I really don’t understand all the details, but it took many, many years to get approval.</p>

<p>This must have been many decades ago. Rome annulments are very rare. Annulments are handled at the diocesan level and “verified” by a neighboring diocese. A person usually has to make a special request for an annulment to go to Rome.</p>

<p>And, as mentioned by Pipmom, sometimes the oddest annulments for the Church to do are the ones for divorced non-Catholics that want to marry Catholics in the Church or who want to join the Church but are not currently in a valid marriage.</p>

<p>And, as mentioned above, the Church assumes all marriages to be valid until examined. So, a nonCatholic married to a nonCatholic is considered to be valid. A nonCatholic married to a Catholic in the Church is considered valid. </p>

<p>However, a Catholic married outside the Church (without permission) is considered to be invalidly married, because proper form did not take place.</p>

58

<p>p.s. Most of my friends are Catholic, but it is not because I won’t associate with anyone else…but because</p>

<ul>
<li><p>I am extremely involved in my church (that leads to socializing…don’t you tend to hang with people you do activities with?)</p></li>
<li><p>I work at a Catholic grade school and my kids go to Catholic high school (so I am friends with their parents and people I serve on committees with, just like everyone does)</p></li>
</ul>

<p>-It just so happens most of my neighbors are Catholic too (purely coincidence I assure you). </p>

<p>I’ve been a Catholic all my life and never seen this “secret handshake” we are always accused of having.</p>

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<p>You are NOT praying TO the saint.</p>

<p>True…</p>

<p>and…part of the misconception is that the word “pray” means ask…it doesn’t mean worship. Catholics ask saints to join them in prayer to God.</p>

<p>Pray tell. (Please do tell).</p>

60

<p>*Asking a friend to pray to God for your ailing S(for example) is different than praying to a man or woman(dead saints) on the belief that they will pass the message on to God for you. The key is- who do we pray to? Many Protestants believe praying should be to God, not man. So in their eyes, don’t pray to Peter(for example) that you will have a safe journey, in hopes he will ask God on your behalf- rather, pray to God for a safe journey. I make no judgment on the right or wrong of either philosophy; I only state that both exist.</p>

<p>I don’t know, but I get the impression MoM2CK is a Catholic and is so desirous of defending her religion that she has read my post without enough care and has jumped in to defend it. Sadly, she is disagreeing with a position that she mistakenly thinks I have written.*</p>

<p>LOL…</p>

<p>So you think I might be Catholic? Uh, yes, I am. </p>

<p>And, actually my example is essentially the same. When a Catholic prays to God and to saints, they are asking the saints (their friends) to also pray for their intentions. Catholics don’t only pray to saints, they also pray to God. Just like my example. A prot will pray to God, and will ask their friends to pray for the same intention. </p>

<p>Let me clear something up. The word “prayer” means to ask. Pray tell…does that ring a bell?</p>

<p>Catholics believe in the Communion of Saints and that we’re brothers in Christ - whether alive on earth or alive in heaven. We all pray for each other.</p>