Excerpt from the CBS article:
"At the protest, Green said the plan was for demonstrators to make noise when Trump walked onstage ‘and then rush the stage.’
Green said the thinking was that the police would not know who to grab because there would be so many people doing it."
The police should be trained for these rallies.
These protesters’ tactics are not new, I can assure you. It’s the police’s job to “grab” whoever they can and remove them from the premise if they try stunts like that. That’s why you have security at these events.
However, it is NOT permissible for the audience to attack the protesters. It’s very simple. The protesters protest with signs and the occasional jeers/whistles/noises, ok. The protesters try to prevent the speech and/or try to rush the stage, the police takes them away. Simple. At no point are the people who came to the rally supposed to, expected to, or entitled to, action against the protesters.
Here, the police’s actions compounded the problem: they didn’t see the man get up in the crowd and punch someone - when it was their job to look at the crowd for crowd control (and yes, crowd control does include both proponents of the speakers and opponents). They also took away the wrong person, the man who’d been punched rather than the man who’d thrown the punch. An investigation is taking place about the failures of the police officers in these two respects.
Finally, since now supporters have been encouraged to act like this, the police needs to receive special training to deal with the protesters (distinguishing between those shouting/holding signs, and those who plan direct action against freedom of speech), AND in monitoring the crowd for any movement or individual who’d like to “make justice themselves” against the “UnAmericans” who protest.
One angle of that altercation shows a cop at the top of the stairs looking directly at the punch. He didn’t move to arrest the assailant.
I personally don’t think it’s right or effective to try to shut speakers down. Protesting is fine, but shutting down speech is not productive. And jumping onstage, in this day and age, is just way out of line.
However, I just saw the video of tje guy who jumped onstage, and this time it included the sound. The people around were yelling “kill him! Kill him!”
Nothing justifies that.
Not naming names or linking to any stories with names, but North Carolina is supposedly looking into charging a particular person with inciting a riot.
It seems, alas, that sometimes our words do have consequences…
ETA: Nevermind, that story has been refuted. Darn.
False narrative. You have no proof it is just one person behaving like this. Cite the CBS article above in Post #160; they do work in groups.
Second, the issue is not a number. NO ONE is allowed to encroach on others personal space without permission, unless one is law enforcement or a parent.
Third. yes, if I am standing there and someone walks briskly toward me and is shouting epithets at me and my family and then raises his hands as he continues to approach, If he does not stop at a couple feet, I will assume he means harm and I will deck him. I am not standing around assuming his intent is not to harm, as his actions are aggressive and assaultive in nature and standing there watching myself become a victim is not my thing. I cannot read minds, so all aggressive behavior that encroaches into my personal space will be put down. My wife and kids are trained that way as well.
Fourth, it is a new world. People are not taking bullying anymore from people who think they can shut down events they do not like. And people are not definitely taking others thinking they can come up in their faces and shout whatever they want. It’s over; these people will get pushed back twice as hard and bullies will be beat back.
Edited to add the below:
Irrelevant if the police are not nearby to immediately assist; one must then take matters into one owns hands until the police shows up.
Yes, train the police, which I believe they already are anyway. But note, the barrier jumper almost got around secret service. If you can get around secret service guys, exactly what do you expect of standard police who can no way get the same level of training?
OWS was lobbying for bigger government. You cannot separate “big government to take the rich people’s money” from “big government law enforcement”… the only way OWS can get what they want is by giving the law enforcement arms of the government more power.
BLM wants more laws and a big government crackdown to fight the police injustice. They could be fighting for fewer laws, and thus reduced police presence (and thus reduced injustice), but they are not.
Government is not the answer to the issues with police; it is the issue.
Nothing justifies rushing at someone speaking at rally.
Interesting you are more concerned about someone saying “kill him” after he tries to get at the person speaking. Most people would be more concerned he was trying to hurt the person speaking. No one had any idea of his intent until afterwards.
Hum… if I think the intent of someone is to seriously harm another, “Kill him” before he really does harm might be my thought also.
Therefore, I disagree. Harm to another can justify stopping someone from breathing if that person initiates the attack.
This is easily avoided - do not rush and attack anyone and do not think one can go up in people’s faces and be physically aggressive in your manner. If you get punched and kicked at that point; it is your own fault.
So what is allowable personal space? 2feet?
I hope you convey your message about this new world to those who harass and bully clients of Planned Parenthood clinics.
In any event, the real bullies (and cowards) aren’t the individuals who shout at some other individual. They’re the ones up on stage, protected by security, shouting hate speech, directed at the powerless, to their frenzied supporters in an arena and hundreds of thousands more on television. I don’t bluster as much as some others, but I certainly hope it’s those bullies who get pushed back in the end. The more people who stand up to them, the better. Violent fantasies about “new worlds” notwithstanding.
2 feet?!! You’d be lucky to get an inch or maybe two in many crowded public areas…especially public transit during rush hour…
Ah, may one also use a gun that they practiced and went to CIA-level training with (of course said training is required by the state. It might not be one of the 50 states of the U.S, but it is * a * state)? I mean we know that, since about 20 million gun holders (may have to add a couple of zeroes, I feel the number is too small) stop crime every year, a gun holder in such a frenzied climate would be the * perfect * person to diffuse such a situation. Given the routine training they’d undergone, I think they’d be able to hit the “violent” protesters in non-vital areas to effectively (yet safely!) neutralize them. Some side effects might ensue from following this course of action: the police may clap in admiration, the protesters may apologize profusely for violating the supporters’ First Amendment rights and vow to support the orange-headed chimp speaking, and the President may immediately issue an Executive Order expanding Second Amendment rights to include the Right to Marry Your Gun Clause.
I’m sorry, but I find some posts impossible to take seriously.
Shades of vigilante justice…
Do you mean the STATE as in “Islamic STATE of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)”? In that STATE, there are surely no lack of alpha males who are “tougher” than the guy who threw the “sucker’s punch.”
@sorghum This particular speaker has definitely condoned violence and it has benefited him. He attracts a certain sort of individual. The followers reflect the leader.
@ucbalumnus
Violence is never justified except during times of war and to defend oneself or another against violent attack. In addition, it is only justified in the later cases if one cannot just run away.
No wonder people have increasing distrust to police! Even I, who did nothing wrong , become a bit rigid when I see police around my city because my black and Hispanic friends told me how frequently they were stopped randomly by police.
No, @mcat2, I meant the mythical US state that requires CCP holders to submit to routine training (ever 6 months no less), requires a rigorous written tests, a back ground check that checks psychological health, trains holders about elementary gun safety and how to react in stressful situations (take * that * anybody who “mistakenly” thought that only police and service academies taught this valuable skill).
Lovely. Just lovely. But not surprising.
If someone attacks another person, get out of there. Don’t engage. Not your monkey. Not your fight. Aggression does not justify additional aggression.
^to me it sounds more and more like what louts would say when caught in a bar fight.
Or an adult version of “but HE did it first!”
Because if there was serious intent to harm or kill - and there might have been, we don’t know - it IS NOT the local citizenry’s role to play superhero. There’s police and security detail there for that very purpose and whose job you’re making harder.
And of course the fact a guy just got up, walked over two people, and punched someone in the face, is not being addressed. It was no response to an attack (even imaginary). The guy was two people away, being escorted out by the police, and not even looking in the direction where the cowboy hat old guy was sitting.
The fact people are now supporting being vigilantes against protesters and justifying it as normal defense (or pre-emptive defense I guess), is worrisome. And, again, requires extra police training.