ASU Honors or Cornell?

Parents Forum
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<p>My S is a junior who will be making some college selection decisions this summer. One of the major decisions he’ll have to make is whether or not to apply ED to Cornell (my H’s alma mater). My S wants to study some kind of engineering but not sure which one. Business is a backup major. He hasn’t taken the ACT/SAT yet, but he plans to take it in June. Here are stats:</p>

<p>Attends public high school
GPA: Unweighted is 4.0; weighted is around 4.8+
Class rank: Not yet determined but definitely top 5%
PSAT: Around 1900 (testing may be his real weakness)
Classes are all IB/AP/honors except 4 yrs wind ensemble (highest band)
Will plan to graduate with IB diploma
Adequate ECs, including 4 yrs marching band (squad leader), NHS, 150+ volunteer hours</p>

<p>My S’s greatest wish for a college is that he participate in a decent marching band. He will very likely continue into grad school.</p>

<p>Money is not a huge issue; we’ve been saving/investing since he was born. It would be nice to get scholarships and/or aid, but it won’t break the bank.</p>

<p>ASU:
He has already qualified for a full tuition scholarship and will likely apply for additional scholarships like the Flinn, which provides a full ride including study abroad, etc. I’m not sure if he’ll get this, as it’s very competitive. ASU has a terrific honors college called Barrett, which has an honors “village” complete with new dorms, great dining, computer lab, fitness center, etc. The majority of his classes - both honors and upper-division - will actually be small, as he’ll get enough IB/AP credits to get out of many gen ed and take other gen ed as honors sections (25 max enrollment). Upper-division engineering classes are not huge. The major drawback to ASU: the party-school reputation. The engineering school ranks in the top 40, and the business school in the top 25.</p>

<p>Cornell:
He’ll likely not get a scholarship, though maybe he’ll get some aid. He has the “hook” of legacy, but it will only count if he applies early decision. Cornell is VERY far away and has a climate that is unlike what he’s used to. Also, the competition may be a little intense for him; he strives to do his best but is not cut-throat at all. He visited Cornell a couple of years ago (but in summer) and loved the campus. He has family (grandmother, uncle/aunt) on Long Island, 5 hours away by bus. However, Cornell has a great engineering school that will likely get him into a good grad school.</p>

<p>If he scores high enough on the ACT, he’ll probably go ahead and apply to both, but the ED decision for Cornell is tough, as it precludes his applying for the Flinn Scholarship. (Flinn wants students to stay in Arizona, so it doesn’t allow students to apply ED for an OOS school).</p>

<p>Anyway, I’d like to get some advice from other parents who have faced helping their kids make the decision between state uni/honor college and elite uni.</p>

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<p>As a Cornell athletic parent, we loved loved loved the pep band. The spirit provided by the pep band was one of the highlights of the games. However, it is NOT a marching band as marching bands go. </p>

<p>Cornell does have the only “marching band” in the Ivy League and every year that Cornell plays Columbia in New York City (so twice in your son’s career) they march down Fifth Avenue and play a concert in front of the Cornell Club.</p>

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<p>If money isn’t too much of an issue, to the point that you’re prepared to be full-pay for Cornell if necessary, then don’t fuss over the difference between full-tuition and full-ride (the Flinn) at ASU. Let him decide whether Cornell is really his first-choice school, assuming that you would support him financially in attending if he was set on it; if so, then you have nothing to lose except a full-ride possibility by applying ED.</p>

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<p>Maybe it is too soon to narrow it down to 2 choices (with an Ivy that is a reach for all) ?</p>

<p>I used to live near Ithaca. Very beautiful. But I do warn friends that winters there are gray, including plenty of precipitation (including “Ithacate” - a sort of frozen rain). That would not be a reason to rule out Cornell, but it should be factored into the decision.</p>

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<p>We faced a similar decision a couple of years ago. Both my H and I graduated from Cornell and absolutely loved our years there. But we were not sure whether we could afford it for my S without financial aid, and so we were not comfortable with his applying early decision, since Cornell’s ED program is a binding one. On the other hand, if he did not apply early decision, the legacy “hook” wouldn’t count in his favor. S had pretty high grades/scores/stats (National AP scholar, 4.6 GPA, 2250 SAT, As in several college engineering courses) but certainly wasn’t a shoo-in. </p>

<p>He applied regular decision to Cornell, but didn’t get in–to our relief, actually, since it turned out that the saving we’ve done for him and his younger sister precluded FA. Sending him to Cornell Engineering as a full-pay student would have stretched us to the max and probably required him or us to take out loans. Of course, that wouldn’t necessarily have been the end of the world, but I was glad we didn’t have to make the decision. S is attending UVA, our flagship state school, is very happy and challenged there, and will have money left over for grad school, summer study, study abroad, etc. if he wishes.</p>

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<p>If money is not an issue consider the academics. Will state budget cuts affect the ASU education- even for Honors? Look at the comparative strengths of both schools in fields your son may end up in. Remember that not all classes will be within the Honors college, especially as he advances in his major. </p>

<p>Definitely have him research and apply to more schools. If he does not get into Cornell he may want another school that outperforms ASU in his potential majors. There are many top engineering schools to consider- both public and private, north and south.</p>

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<p>What about U of Michigan? Astonishing marching band, and great engineering and business programs.</p>

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<p>There are many other good engineering schools- check the US News rankings for the top 20 in various fields. Climate may be an issue (a reason I didn’t come out with UW…).</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>Not having taken the ACT or SAT yet, it is difficult to say if your S would be a good candidate for ED at Cornell. “Legacy” is not as much of a hook as you may think–they obviously can’t accept all the talented legacies who want to go there.</p></li>
<li><p>Definitely consider other schools besides the two you mentioned. Many State Unis have good engineering and business, dynamic marching bands (gotta play at those football games) and give money to desirable students. Just as a for instance, I’m thinking of University of Cincinnati, which has all of the above and whose band motto is “The UC Band Is Damn Good!” ;)</p></li>
<li><p>Many of the above have rolling admissions, so your S could know sooner rather than later about the many good choices he will have. (If he doesn’t do Cornell ED.)</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>The only scholarships Cornell gives to students are need based awards. You would need to qualify for money based on your financial need at Cornell. Should you son get accepted, Cornell does guarantee to meet full need as they calculate your need to be. However, it doesn’t sound like finances are the issue.</p>

<p>A caution about ASU Barrett…it is an excellent honors college program. However if your son receives a scholarship, the GPA to keep that scholarship within the Barrett honors program is VERY high (over 3.2 I believe…it might be 3.5). Especially in engineering, this is a high GPA to maintain to COUNT on continued merit aid. Reportedly (from others on this forum), the school will not renew the merit aid if the GPA drops below the threshold. But again…if finances are not an issue, this isn’t a concern!</p>

<p>The schools are very different. If your son hasn’t visited Cornell in early February, I would suggest he do so. If he likes the weather at that time of the year, he’ll probably like it most of the time. The winters are long…and cold, very different from those in Arizona! </p>

<p>If your son does well in engineering at ASU, he will be able to get into a good grad school…or get an engineering job. Engineering curriculum doesn’t vary much from university to university especially for ABET accredited programs (and I believe both are).</p>

<p>There are tons of colleges out there with good marching bands and good engineering programs.</p>

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<p>It atrikes me that there is a lot of academic ground between Cornell and ASU, and nless he achieves a significant jump upward in his test scores admission to Cornell may be a rather remote possibility. I think that you should look for some other schools to fill in the gap. There are probably a fair number of state flagships, for example, with solid engineering programs and marching bands out there. Someone mentioned the Univeristy of Michigan…I think it is at least slightly less difficult an admit than Cornell for an OOS kid. There are others that will be less selective. </p>

<p>It seems to me to be too early to become fixated on only two schools.</p>

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<p>Your son might want to consider Georgia Tech, which is great in engineering, has a wonderful marching band, and falls between Cornell and ASU in terms of selectivity (and cost!).</p>

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<p>Cornell has a “real” marching band (meaning not a scatter band, like most of the Ivy League) but doesn’t take marching band a seriously as a lot of state universities and southern schools in general do. This is probably an advantage for someone majoring in a program as demanding as engineering.</p>

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<p>Thank you to everyone so far! You have given me a lot of ideas to think about as I guide my son’s decisions this summer.</p>

<p>@thumper1
The scholarships at ASU are actually not part of Barrett; they are part of ASU’s New American University awards. The minimum GPA to renew the scholarship each year is 3.0, which I believe is very attainable for my son, even in engineering. (He can just take a lighter load during a semester where he has really tough courses, given the number of AP/IB credits that he’ll receive). He already qualifies for one scholarship; he’ll likely qualify for a better one that goes beyond tuition because of his HS grades. Also, my H does plan to take my S back to Cornell, but it’ll have to be in early fall, as the ED deadline is well before deep winter. Anyway, you’re right that this Arizona boy needs to get a whiff of a real winter before deciding!</p>

<p>@jingle
Thanks for sharing your very similar and encouraging story. Your S’s stats were certainly high, and now I’m getting a better idea of whether Cornell is even within reach.</p>

<p>@everyone
Thanks for the ideas of other schools to consider! I inadvertently implied that we were only looking at two schools. In fact, we have looked at a few others (including the UC system - both UCLA and UC Berkeley have top engineering programs, great marching bands, and good climates to boot!). I just picked ASU and Cornell because they represent the least and most elite of the schools he’s considering so far.</p>

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<p>Cornell does offer the 5 years BS/masters in Engineering, tho…</p>

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<p>Yes, thanks, I do know about the 5-year BS/ME, as my H has both the degrees. Many engineering schools (including ASU) have the 5-year program. If my S isn’t completely burned out when he completes his BS, he will likely pursue the 5th year.</p>

<p>My fear is that his BS in engineering from ASU won’t look impressive if he wants to apply to a more elite engineering program.</p>