Helping a friend’s child decide between ASU (Arizona State) vs Michigan State vs GWU for bachelors degree.
Student is interested in Econ and has plans to do a graduate degree (possibly PhD), therefore graduate school admissions matter for this decision.
Student plans to eventually go into thinktank/IMF/World Bank type of career, possibly academia too.
Cost is not a big concern though GWU would be approx $15k more expensive than other options.
Geography, weather, and school size don’t seem like major concerns except to the extent they influence opportunities for research, developing relationships with faculty, access to internships etc.
GWU seems to have a clear edge in terms of internships and possibly greater percentage of alumni in targeted employers. Not sure how much that matters at bachelors vs graduate school level.
I’ll keep this open since it seems innocuous enough. We generally don’t allow “asking for a friend posts.” Hopefully no responses/suggestions result in a “IDK, let me check,” since that will shut the thread down.
Biased as a GW grad, but if they like the urban campus, this is a easy one. The opportunities both because of the proximity and the work of the University are extraordinary. Obviously, if they are looking for a more traditional campus, there isn’t much that GW can do but my vote wouldn’t be close.
GW doesn’t really have a true campus - well, they have the Vern but the main campus is more urban and really not campusy. ASU is like an office park. No idea about Michigan State.
Since you mention a PhD, here are the feeders from college transitions - so third party. I prefer the right side which is per capita.
On the left side, GW shows 18 (it’s the pure volume side), Michigan State 17, with ASU unlisted (double check).
On the more important right side, none of the three are top 50.
I do think, at 17, one doesn’t really know the likelihood of getting a PhD.
Not sure that GW will have an edge in internships - especially Summer…but they might for during the year. Might…..you can check outcomes.
Does the student want football and parties, etc. Then ASU or Mich State. Does the student want to be in the city, a fantastic city with sightseeing and museums galore, then GW.
Will the cost impact the families lifestyle? Will it strain them…then if so, not GW.
Are there significant differences in Econ departments? US News rankings (which I understand may not be reliable indicators) show both MSU and ASU in 30s for Econ whereas GWU is ranked 61. Trying to understand what that might mean in terms of difference in student experience and outcomes.
US News department rankings are - garbage. They’re a popularity contest and nothing else - IMHO. Also, they rank only ten undergrad so I’m assuming you looked at grad rankings. I think the student can ask each department for where students might have pursued a PhD. Let’s be honest - these are all three solid schools..but they are not Ivy or UNC or UC or Texas, etc. in the world of perception….if that makes sense - but they are likely good substitutes for one another.
Here’s the methodology - and their response rate was 32% for econ- making it double garbage. It’s great to sell you magazines though or other things they get paid on clicks for.
“In spring and summer of 2025, deans and senior faculty rated the academic quality of peer programs they were familiar with on a 5-point scale: outstanding (5), strong (4), good (3), adequate (2) or marginal (1). Individuals who were unfamiliar with a particular program were asked to select “don’t know.”
Each qualifying school or program was sent two peer assessment surveys.
An average peer assessment score was calculated for each program using a trimmed mean, which removes the two highest and two lowest scores to reduce the impact of outliers. Programs with at least 10 ratings after trimming were then ranked in descending order based on this score.
Programs with an average score below 2.0 (1.5 for computer science) are grouped alphabetically in a ranking range rather than receiving a specific numerical rank. These schools can request their numerical rank by emailing official@usnews.com.”
I have known multiple people who either have or are currently studying for a master’s or a PhD or both, in a range of fields but none were in economics. They all have reported that the other students in their program came from a huge range of universities. Some of these did go for a graduate degree in a field that is closely related to math (which was my major), and of course some students might major in math for their bachelor’s degree and then go on to a graduate degree in economics.
I think that this is a tough decision.
I wonder whether it is possible to visit at least some if not all of these three schools, although the distance between them is not going to be helpful for physical visits. We got to chat with professors for some of our “accepted and trying to decide” physical visits, and I am wondering if it would be possible to set this up virtually using zoom or some other on-line method.
Has the student been admitted to the honors college at ASU or at Michigan State ? If not, then why does the student see herself/himself as PhD material ? As think-tank/IMF/World Bank material ?
For pre-PhD students, the math intensity of the economics courses (particularly intermediate microeconomics and econometrics) can matter for preparation for graduate study. Prerequisites of single variable calculus should be the minimum for the intermediate level courses, while courses with prerequisites of multivariable calculus and/or linear algebra may be better for this purpose.
In addition, pre-PhD economics students generally take upper level math and statistics courses like real analysis, linear algebra, probability theory, etc.
Beyond that, the selection of upper level economics electives can matter in terms of subarea interests.
ASU has two BS versions of the major, one of which is under the business division and the other is in the liberal arts and sciences division. The liberal arts and sciences version is likely better for a pre-PhD student, since it allows for more schedule space for advanced math and statistics electives (though the required level of math and statistics is similar). The business version of the major requires a large number of business courses. See Undergraduate Economics Program | ASU W. P. Carey
If you’re going for an econ PhD, a very important factor (aside from research LoRs, etc) is the rigor and availability of advanced math classes - calc 3, linear algebra, mathematical probability and stats, differential equations, and real analysis.
MSU has the professorial assistantship program which could potentially mean starting research (or at least developing skills that could be used for research) right from the beginning, as well as an advanced version of the standard math major.
Keep in mind that it’s becoming harder and harder to get into strong PhD programs straight out of your bachelor’s - predocs (basically a one to two year research position) and master’s degrees are becoming more common.
How much role do internships at the undergraduate level play for such a plan? Seems like GWU would have a lead on that but not sure how much internships would matter.
Student can work as a fact-checker or editor for a professor working on a book or article. Econ professors hire students to run and interpret regressions (under their supervision). Etc. Relevant experience as an undergrad isn’t just internships!
If it were me, I’d encourage my friend’s kid to put the PhD considerations aside for now. Kid is what- 17? Plotting out the next 10 years is very hard. And rife with issues– among them, will the kid actually love Econ enough to do it full time for the next decade (and beyond if all goes well). There are a LOT of kids who take an introductory course and LOVE IT. Supply curve, demand curve, what’s not to love?
Then they take their first econometrics class and it’s “Get me out of here”. Or among that first Macro course is fantastic and fun and exhilarating. And then comes the junior seminar on Monetary Policy in Post WW2 Europe and it’s a thousand pages of reading per week plus an original research work due by the end of the semester and…. ugh. Followed by the class which has students working with Census data, analyzing labor participation broken down by zip code, age, and household composition and making a recommendation on tax policy. And students who have not aced statistics can’t even figure out the first assignment….