Yes, the flag will not bring back the 9 victims and it will not prevent an attack such as this from occurring again; however, removing a symbol that is filled with racism, hatred, and terror surely has a positive effect on the community.
Well, goes to show that the replying poster’s useful knowledge goes back less than 23 years.
Obviously, the replying poster has no clue that the Clinton-Gore campaign used this very flag as part of its 1992 campaign, with the Clinton-Gore name superimposed on top. Is the replying poster actually saying that Clinton-Gore are known racists and wanted to stir up racial hatred?
I guess Clinton-Gore were dumb to the history as well for they had zero issue using it and no one called them out on it, as I do not recall on article or person telling them not to use it. Maybe someone wrote such an article, but I do not recall seeing one story about it.
Oh, and the fact that Clinton had a Confederate flag prominently hanging above his desk (for 8 years) when he was governor of Arkansas is all just imaginary as well, I guess.
Hum, let’s do the math - gees, Clinton was doing the above out in the open and in public some 30 to 23 years ago.
Now, given the above use of the flag by the leading executive of a state and also by said executive when running for president, which poster seems to have the facts correct about how the flag was viewed some 30 years ago? You decide.
adcntdb, Southern politicians hoping to attain high office have often been adept at embracing the modern, though increasingly not-so-plausible claim that, (wink-wink, nod-nod) the Confederate battle flag was “all about Southern cultural pride”. In states like Arkansas, the need to vote pander to the elements that well knew and valued its historically manifest meaning was crucial, if disingenuous. The Clinton-Gore campaign may have been no different. The buttons you mentioned are not known to have actually been officially produced and distributed by the Clinton campaign, btw.
As far as the battle flag hanging behind his desk while governor is concerned, it may well have been a function of political expediency was well, especially if even then, he had Presidential aspirations. He would need the crucial Southern states’ votes in the electoral college. It’s politics. Politicians have always paid heed to the prevailing winds, whether they’ve presaged change, mandated adherence to the status quote, or indicated a need for a savvy bit of waffling and prevaricating.
Meanwhile, there can be no denying that things have changed recently concerning official governmental sanctioning of the Confederate battle flag. Note the recent Supreme Court decision in the Sons of Confederate Veterans group vs the State of Texas case. Last weeks massacre has shed light on the true history of the flag (especially as it was resurrected as a symbol of segregation and defiance during the civil rights era), and given Root’s (and many hate groups’) affection for it in connection with openly racist beliefs, it’s become increasingly more difficult to claim that it’s merely an innocuous symbol of Southern pride.
My prediction is that fewer and fewer politicians of any ilk will be willing to die on that hill.
^You seem to be able to rationalize certain politicians’ (Clinton) endorsement of the flag as “political expediency” but not others (SC legislators). The distinction is not clear to me, unless you are saying that the meaning has changed over time.
Re Post 302:
I do understand what you are saying in your post, but it contains many suppositiions you would like to believe true without knowing those to be the case. Frankly, I am more comfortable in going on what people say and do, not hoping they are lying to me, so I convince myself to feel good about them.
I am fully aware of Southern political history and cultural pride issue, including the fact that the continued slavery after the War of Independence, segregation, Jim Crow and the KKK were all institutions asked for and created by Democrats. I assume that is the wink-wink, nod-nod you are talking about, as Clinton was just ponying up and embracing his party’s true history.
Thanks for using the word “may,” because you do not know, but would sure love to believe so. OK, I get that. However, since I cannot read minds and hearts, I will just go with what they do and say.
It sure does not help that, as a member of the US Senate, Gore’s father also voted against the Civil Rights act of 1965. Oops…pretty consistent stuff going on there in the family.
I love the term “officially.”
No one in the Clinton campaign asked for the buttons to be stopped or revoked, and they attended union rallies where the buttons were prominently worn. I remember those buttons all throughout the campaign till the end. Just because they did not make them, does not mean they had to accept them. And worse, did not mean they could not renounce them - there was no renouncement of any sort. Sorry, cannot have it both ways.
However, keep rationalizing as you need, including rationalizing that Clinton, in the past, has said on many occasions that his “hero and mentor” (his words) is William Fulbright, a known segregationist, who I believe signed the Southern Manifesto - pretty sure he signed it. No one made Clinton ever divulge that is his hero, as that was volunteered. I guess that was also a wink-wink, nod-nod.
Overall, the Confederate flag and Fulbright are viewed very different today than 30 - 40 years ago, as I doubt Clinton would openly voice support for both today. That is the valid point the earlier poster was making.
"Frankly, I wish the media would focus less on the flag and more on the love, unity, and healing taking place in my city in the aftermath of this tragedy.
Does this unity include stricter gun control laws in SC?
It’s great there is such an outpouring from the citizens of SC but, imo, it’s getting tiring seeing people in the aftermath of these shootings doing nothing about the real culprit. Let me know when the good people of SC call for stricter gun control laws. Then I will be impressed.
Please, no gun control discussion on this thread.
There is specific thread devoted to gun control relating to this matter. But for the record, SC is NOT among the 10 States with the most lenient gun control laws. Additionally, SC is one of only 6 states (a group which includes CA, NY, IL) that prohibits open carry. Concealed carry in SC requires a permit (which takes time, training and an extensive background check to obtain). I believe Vermont, on the other hand, allows concealed carry at age 16 without a permit.
Sorry, didn’t mean to get off topic, but getting a tired of all the SC bashing.
“For the poster who asked - as I recall, the details are the decree to display the flag was pushed by Sen Hollings (D - SC) and the act was signed and approved by Clinton. The senator said the reason was to celebrate Southern history. This is why the governor or anyone cannot just remove the flag; it is there by law.”
Um, why would President Clinton have been involved in a decision by a state to fly a particular flag? It’s odd given how well- versed you are in the Constitution that you would believe what you write to be true.
I think you read some source with an agenda and parroted it.
“Please, no gun control discussion on this thread.”
Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to remember which tread I’m posting on.
Overtheedge - I am putting up overview of SC guns laws on the other thread.
No, actually, EarlVanDorn, we’ve all thought those Confederate flags were the mark of the ignorant and uneducated for a lot longer than 30 years. They’ve always been something normal people disassociated themselves from. We’ve always snickered at people who wore or flew them. And still do, of course. This isn’t a liberal thing. This is normal in more sophisticated parts of the country.
What we wear, do, etc sends signals about oneself. Why one would take pride in wearing or flying something that brands the user as ignorant, unsophisticated, behind the times, and potentially racist is beyond me. Is it that you guys just don’t know that it’s the signal it sends? Or you know but you don’t care? Neither is particularly flattering.
"Yeah, I forgot, those Duke boys on the Dukes of Hazard were really racist. That’s why they had a Confederate flag on the roof of their car. "
Rofl! We laughed AT the Dukes of Hazzard because they were the stereotype. No one aspired to BE them. Lol.
I never saw the Clinton/Gore flag buttons, don’t know if they were officially endorsed or produced by the campaign, but then again I’m not the target audience of people still smarting from losing a war over 150 years ago. I always thought of myself as an American first, not a “northerner” or “Yankee” and it’s pathetic that some people only seem to be able to celebrate their history and heritage by being deliberately and cruelly insensitive to others.
Ya lie down with dogs, ya get fleas.
This is what the Confederate flag is about now:
I was born and grew up in the Deep South. As a baby boomer, I was born before Brown v Board, so I came of age during the civil rights movement. Never, as in not once, did I ever meet anyone who flew the Confederate flag who supported civil rights. I know that’s anecdotal, but it’s my experience. Just as the theory of States Rights is not by definition about slavery, everyone knew it was about slavery. That flag was the sme way. You can say it was southern heritage, but we all understood it wasn’t.
Boy, that Civil War really was a waste of time and energy if it meant we fought to keep losers like that guy in the Union. You don’t want to be American? Buh-bye. That’s how I also feel when periodically some politicians call for secession (like Rick Perry a few years ago). Buh-bye as well! Later, much!
I haven’t received a reply from the Boeing Company regarding my letter asking them to support the removal of the flag. I see that Michelin North America issued an opinion that is by far more substantive than the innocuous statement offered by Boeing. From the Charleston Post and Courier;
Michelin: "Michelin applauds Gov. Haley’s call to remove the Confederate flag from the Statehouse grounds and agrees that the flag must be immediately removed,” said Pete Selleck, chairman and president of Michelin North America. “We are ready to support our elected officials as they take the necessary steps to do so.”
Contrasted with Boeing… "We support the leadership of South Carolina and the steps taken today to address this important issue for the people of South Carolina.”
"However, keep rationalizing as you need, including rationalizing that Clinton, in the past, has said on many occasions that his “hero and mentor” (his words) is William Fulbright, a known segregationist, who I believe signed the Southern Manifesto - pretty sure he signed it. "
This is really odd. You just said a minute ago that you judge people by what they themselves say and do. Is everyone responsible for everything that their “heroes and mentors” do or don’t do?
Really? How old are you? A lot of us are old enough to remember the Confederate flag being used to intimidate all kinds of people.
What exactly were white students intending when they displayed it in their demonstrations against the integration of public universities in the South?
Jan. 11, 1961:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive/pdf?res=9902EEDF1739EE32A25752C1A9679C946091D6CF
This quote from John McCain regarding his past support for the confederate flag is instructive.
"During his presidential campaign that year, he had been asked to comment on the Confederate battle flag displayed at South Carolina’s statehouse. He had been campaigning in the state to prepare for the GOP primary.
McCain initially said the issue should be left up to the state, and later apologized for not calling for its removal, saying he had given up on his principles out of political self-interest.
“That’s one of my biggest regrets, frankly, of all of the campaigns I’ve been in.” "