It is no more “Christian-bashing” to use the term “Christian terrorists” when referring to individuals who use a perverted and self-serving interpretation of Christianity to justify violence against societies, then it is “Muslim-bashing” to use the terms “Islamic extremists” and “Islamic terrorists” to refer to individuals who pervert Islam to justify violence against societies. Apparently though, some Christians are offended when the word “Islamic” is omitted when describing acts committed by terrorists who claim to subscribe to the religion of Islam. Terms like “terrorist extremists” do not suffice. Oh no: It must be pointed out that these people are Islamic. Using “Christian” to refer to refer to terrorists motivated by supposed Christian doctrine, however, is to use “too broad a brush”. Funny how that works, isn’t it?
Interview with the killer’s ex-wife:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/us/ex-wife-recalls-colorado-gunman-as-imperfect-but-a-good-man.html
Their divorce was amicable. He had custody of their son. He was a Baptist, not much of a church-goer but a strong Bible believer.
Joblue, a lot of people here over time, in many threads, have rightfully condemned Islamic terrorism, and have even complained when public figures don’t use that term to describe it. Have you gone on all those threads and told people to stop the Muslim-bashing?
It’s a “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander” thing.
That article in the Times with the ex-wife was troubling for what it left out. She gave custody of her son to this guy, because she felt he was a good father, but it seems he went a little loony after the divorce, living in shacks and peering at women. Where was the kid when the dad was living in shacks in the woods with no running water?
I was wondering the same thing
As soon as this guy states that he committed the murders in the name of Christianity or some “Christian” terrorist group claims his acts were done in service of their agenda, you would have some ground to stand on. The fact that he may have gone to church or read the bible at some point in his life, is really reaching IMO. It seems that waiting to find out what really was behind this incident wouldn’t be as satisfying as just proceeding with the standard assumptions on the evils of religious faith of any kind, so please carry on. I’ll try not to interfere any further.
I don’t find it at all surprising that most (if not all) abortion clinic violence is perpetrated by extremist Christian terrorists. However, it’s not true that all strongly held pro-life sentiments are held by Christians, which I think people seem to take for granted. I know some atheists who are very active in the anti-choice movement, not because of any religiously held beliefs about when life begins, but simply because of personal beliefs about it.
I don’t agree that pointing out the reality of who perpetrates these crimes is Christian bashing.
“It seems that waiting to find out what really was behind this incident wouldn’t be as satisfying as just proceeding with the standard assumptions on the evils of religious faith of any kind, so please carry on. I’ll try not to interfere any further.”
"COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. (AP) — The man who police say staged a deadly shooting attack on a Planned Parenthood clinic that offers abortion services said “no more baby parts” after his arrest, a law enforcement official said Saturday.
The official could not elaborate about the comment by the 57-year-old suspect, Robert Lewis Dear. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because the official was not authorized to speak publicly about the ongoing investigation.
Planned Parenthood said late Saturday that witnesses said the gunman was motivated by his opposition to abortion."
http://news.yahoo.com/gunman-custody-attack-planned-parenthood-clinic-074633655.html
Just like there was no doubt immediately after the Paris killings, there was no doubt about this shooting either.
It’s not like incidents at PP are rare that one cannot figure it out immediately the motivation of the terrorist and their demographic.
There were tweets by like minded people cheering the Colorado gunman. I won’t link because it is disgusting what they were saying, but do a quick Google search and one can see for themselves.
Well isn’t this just ducky: http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/11/28/pro-life-conservative-christians-are-cheering-the-planned-parenthood-terrorist-as-a-hero-images/
The posts are just sickening.
Report them to the FBI as terrorist sympathizers.
Let’s stop pretending that Christian violence against abortion providers is somehow rare, or that its occurrence is somehow unpredictable. The sad story goes:
(1) Religious fundamentalist preachers, politicians and media personalities stir up anti-abortion sentiment with lies
(2) Christian anti-abortion groups publicized the names and contact info of abortion providers and abortion clinics
(3) Unhinged Christians commit violent attacks
(4) Lots of Christians celebrate those attacks privately while some of them deplore them publicly.
There’s a whole lot of nodding and winking going on here.
If someone lies that abortion clinics are murdering babies for parts, they don’t get to then say, “Gracious heavens! I When I said abortion clinics are murdering babies for parts, and told people where the clinics are, and led them to the clinics, I never dreamed that someone would go to the clinic and kill or bomb! What a surprise!”
When it happens for the twentieth time, it’s not a surprise any more. It’s a predictable result of lying and fomenting violence, and it’s past time that the liars and fomenters take responsibility for the death that results.
There is some irony to this claim of Christian bashing and saying that attacks on abortion clinics and such are not “Christian Terrorism”. The irony is that when Muslims claim that Isis or the other radical types don’t represent “true Islam”, the same people crying Christian bashing are often the same people saying that Muslims don’t do anything about terrorism and thus it must be part of the faith.
The reality is that those who bomb abortion clinics, those who kill abortion doctors, who bomb planned parenthood, who assault workers there and clients, are usually Christian fundamentalists of some sort of another. Someone pointed out there are atheists who are pro life, and while that is true (I have known some, who believe abortion is wrong because they believe a fetus is a human being and it is a matter of law), I have never heard of an atheist being accused of bombing a clinic, especially if the examples I have seen are true, atheists who are pro life do so based in the law, and they won’t kill others or violate the very law they claim to uphold. The idea of just war, or that the ends justify the means, are not exactly uncommon in religious thinking, concepts like just war and ‘holy war’ and Jihad abound to allow someone to reconcile the wrongness of killing someone with a ‘higher moral purpose’, and IMO an atheist or agnostic (or a Christian of groups like the Menonites or Quakers that don’t believe the holy war nonsense) doesn’t have that out.
I also think that some made a fundamental era when he said that unless we could show that the guy in question belonged to some church or organization we couldn’t accuse him of being a Christian terrorist. The assumption that you have to belong to a church or organization makes someone Christian is a fallacy, often spread by the churches, being Christian means that someone believes in Christ, whether it is the traditional form or not, and believes that Christ guides their life. The guy in question apparently saw himself as a Christian, read the bible, and according to his ex wife was religious, and therefore he was Christian, whether or not he belonged to a church. Islam is much the same way, to become a Muslim you simply have to acknowledge that Allah is the true God and Mohammad his most important prophet, and then you are bound simply to live the rules of the Q’ran and to meet certain obligations, like praying 5 times a day. When I hear things like that, or that the guy is mentally ill, it is a dodge, much the same way that claiming that Isis members are not Muslim, they are, because they claim they are. That doesn’t make all Muslims terrorists, any more than this makes all Christians terrorists, when you say “Christian terrorist” or “Muslim Terrorist” you are saying that their faith or belief was the cause of their acts, and in this case, the fact that the guy hit Planned Parenthood, that has been the main focal point of fundementalist/religious right America and their political allies, that has been portrayed as the root of evil, is no coincidence, the rhetoric of conservative Christians and their political allies led directly to this point, it doesn’t take advanced knowledge of Greek first principles to figure that out, any more than the ravings of Islamic fanatics against the west, against secularization, against the evil west out to destroy Islam or pollute its moral puritiy, are easily tied to the terrorism we see.
The Christian right in form or content is no different than the Islamic radicals we are fighting against, their language is inflammatory and worse, it is to the point that rather than seeing those who are pro choice, or groups like Planned Parenthood, as people who have strong beliefs of their own and who believe strongly enough to advocate their position and/or practice it, they have demonized the other side to the point that they basically are saying ‘they’ are evil, are doing evil, and therefore it is okay for God Fearing, Christ loving people to do anything to stop them, they have created the ultimate “other”.
And before someone comes back and talks about Christian bashing, how it is ‘open season’ on Christians, show me where pro life groups have had their offices firebombed, show me where someone walked into an fundamentalist Christian church and shot the place up, saying they all were evil and going to hell, show me where anti abortion protesters were shot at and killed…and therein lies a fundamental point, those who oppose the radical Christians for the most part use words, I haven’t seen laws where fundamentalist Christians are denied jobs or housing, I haven’t seen mega churches fire bombed or shot up, the ‘war against Christians’, if there is one, is a war of words and thoughts and ideas, whereas the violence against planned parenthood, abortion clinics, gay bars, gays and lesbians, transgender people, most of the time can be tied to so called Christian believers. What is really funny is when you ask those about the ‘war on Christians", it is about things like school prayer being ‘denied’, it is about the idiocy of "happy holidays’ instead of “Merry Christmas”, it is in same sex marriage being legal…doesn’t sound like a war to me.
It isn’t Christian bashing when people talk about acts like this as “Christian terrorism”, even if it is a lone wolf, any more than it is muslim bashing to talk about Islamic terrorism, both are based in acts supposedly tied to the faith; when Itzak Rabin was killed, his killer could and should of been described as an ultra orthodox Jewish terrorist, because that is what the guy was/is. Religion is something that inspires a lot of passion, and in the end that passion can be turned easily into violence, has been throughout the history of religion, and it doesn’t denigrate a whole faith when you say it is inspired by the religion, it simply is stating a fact.
@musicprnt, I am responding ONLY to the portion of your post which implies that Christians do not have violence directed at them. In the United States, Christian churches with African American members have certainly been targeted. The fact that the members are African American is without a doubt the primary cause, but it is churches rather than African American colleges or NAACP offices that seem to have been singled out. In the Middle East, there has been a concerted effort by ISIS and other extremist groups to exterminate Christians. The New York Times Magazine article from July of this year covers this topic and is very well reported. You seem like a person who likes to do extensive research, so I thought I would just mention these instances to you.
I’m certain 99.9% of the attacks on African American churches and members are done by Christians. It’s not a religious thing, but racial.
@ Lady Lorna,
As NoVADad99 aptly noted, attacks on black Christians, perpetrated by white Christians, can hardly be blamed on religion rather than ethnicity.
Attacks in the Middle East and Africa are generally against “not us”, groups attacking anyone outside their own particular sect. ISIS attacks Muslims, Jews, Christians, anyone who does not conform to their specific brand of Islam. These kinds of attacks are not really about who they are against so much as who they are for.
And not incidentally, Christians in the Central African Republic are forcing Muslims to convert to Christianity under pain of death.
As to the NYT article, can you give any better reference for it? A title, perhaps, or the author? I looked and could not find anything that was obviously to what you were referring.
I believe that this is the NYT article that Lady Lorna referred to:
Is This the End of Christianity
in the Middle East?
ISIS and other extremist movements across the region are
enslaving, killing and uprooting Christians, with no aid in sight.
By ELIZA GRISWOLDJULY 22, 2015
Which has absolutely nothing to do with militant Christians shooting up and burning down Planned Parenthood clinics.
In this country
Well of course they do. In this country, most people are Christian. In this country, some people have violence directed at them. Stands to reason most of the victims of violence will be Christian, since most Americans are Christian.
But where you’re falling down, Lady Lorna, is in giving us examples of people in the United States who have violence directed at them because they are Christians. White Christian terrorists don’t target black churches because the congregation is Christian; white Christian terrorists target black churches because the congregation is black.