At what point do you think merit-aid-less colleges will really price out...

Parents Forum
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<p>martina, I hear you loud and clear. I would guess that your income was not always 100k either. I know that I went from work working full time, to being a SAHM from the time my second child was born until he went to kindergrarten. The reason was because of the child care costs in my area x2 children vs. my ability to earn a certain amount of money at that time. Oh, and any financial setbacks are not considered on the fafsa. </p>

<p>I also have a problem with people stating that everyone has the same possible financial hardships, such as elder care. Some people have had to help support their elderly parents for many years. Others have elderly parents with plenty of money and they are self supporting and many are helping to pay for their grandchildren’s college. Some parents know that they can count on an inheritance from their parents (children’s grandparents) which can be used to help assist in their retirement (ie: if both sets of parents are in their 80s and have substantial assets and 2 or less children, with a good relationship with parents/inlaws). Other parents are not so fortunate. This is something never addressed because it just cannot be factored into mix, yet it is also part of what some parents consider when thinking about it is affordable and what is not affordable.</p>

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<p>What I can’t understand about this thread is why people are so busy telling other people they “ought to be able” to afford things.</p>

<p>College costs have increased in a manner which has outpaced inflation just incredibly. (I am easily full pay, with no complaints, but my daughter chose a scholarship for her own reasons. I would have paid and paid happily, but NOT because I think colleges are priced to what the market will bear.)</p>

<p>THERE IS NO OTHER PLACE IN THE ECONOMY where somebody is allowed to borrow far beyond their ability to repay, where the loans are actually unforgivable, where the lenders have NO RISK. This has created a windfall for banks who lend and a windfall to colleges who collect and raise tuitions.</p>

<p>This is the crime here, and it looks a LOT like every other bubble this economy has ever seen.</p>

<p>The “problem” is not that people who make 120K for a few years didn’t SAVE enough money, and the problem isn’t that Low income people are recieving too much aid. The problem is that the colleges do not have to be responsive to real market pressures and can blithely raise tuition as 18 and 19 year olds (people not even old enough to have a legal drink or rent a rent a car in this country) are saddled with debt they cannot be expected to understand. This is so incredibly unethical, it is no wonder our kids are graduating college so darn ethically challenged. The institutions educating them have become amoral in their quest for higher tuition.</p>

<p>This is not an industry that has the best interests of the kids at heart. It has become as greedy as any other industry with access to unlimited funds. </p>

<p>This is not a matter of income. The pricing is completely insane.</p>

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<p>Poetgrl–I agree, if people can’t pay, they can’t pay. Only they know. What I object to is the distortion that creeps in that if only they were lucky like the poor folk, life would be easier–that it’s harder to be upper middle class than to be lower. The attitude is common, and I think it’s misguided and leads to a sense of grievance which is corrosive.</p>

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<p>Yes, I think it is incredibly corrosive for people to tell other people what they can and cannot afford, or to assert that those so incredibly unfortunate as to be eligible for need based aid are somehow at fault here. But, the truth is that this class warfare thing, from both sides, is a distraction from the real issue, which is the unethical way colleges are currently “packaging” “financial aid” offers, as if a loan were some kind of great offer FOR THE KID. </p>

<p>Balderdash. it is a great offer for the school. AND they get to advertise “Meets full need” while offering loans? Meets WHOSE full need is what I want to know! Not the kid’s.</p>

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<p>Amen…</p>

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<p>Garland: Actually, I wouldn’t want to live my siblings lifestyles because I don’t agree with many things they do. For instance, my mother has watched their children for years so they don’t have to pay for childcare. However, I see this as a drain on my mother (because she tells me it is), so I have never asked her to do this for me. My one brother drives my mother’s car, even though she bought it as a treat for herself. At Christmas, these children get bored opening gifts because there are so many. I could go on and on, but I won’t, because I truly love my siblings, in spite of not agreeing with them. Let’s just say that there is a huge difference in the family background between a poor kid from a bad neighborhood and these kids from my family.</p>

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<p>wonkapickletop, I am not discussing your sibs’ income, but your description in post #186 demonstrates help some families get from grandparents that is not factored into the fafsa calculation (ie: free childcare in your family). In other families grandparents can contribute thousands of dollars towards college and/or in other ways.</p>

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<p>I would think that someone would be at quite a disadvantage if they came from a family that the colleges decided could afford to be full pay, and the parents gave no assistance. Those are the kids walking away with 200K loans. And they are getting the exact same education as the full aid kids who get a free ride., with the same job prospects. I don’t think there’s any education worth getting yourself into that kind of debt when you’re 22, unless it has a high payoff like med school.</p>

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<p>It took most of us many decades of being in the work force to earn our current incomes. In my case, thanks to the state of healthcare, my income goes down, not up. My DH’s rose, but plateaued, and then there was the interruption in employment thanks to the economy. Regardless of the incomes we made then or now, I tend to agree that, in the absence of some major financial catastrophe, most people can and should learn how to live within their means and save for the future. I agree that while it would have been lovely to have had a lower colloege bill to pay, the flexibility that one has by not being dependent on other sources to pay for college is comforting.</p>

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<p>jnm - SUNY-Geneseo is often considered the ‘honors’ school of the SUNY system. It may not be known much beyond those outside of the northeast, but it is a very selective state school, and at least four years ago, would have been much cheaper than sending one of our kids to UIUC.</p>

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<p>Poetgrl–I believe that the meets-full-need schools, and there are only about 40, agree that only the basic Stafford can be used in that definition. ( Possibly the Perkins–but that’s usually not much if offered). Definitely not PLUS loans, parent or student.</p>

<p>At my S’ meets-full-need school, PLUS loans were offered to meet the EFC, but not for the need. Need was met to the penny. I don’t think that meets-full-need schools (again, a tiny minority) are where the problem lies.</p>

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<p>Garland, I’m sure you are right. </p>

<p>Teriwtt…I like the geneseo model and really wish we had a well-regarded state LAC in Illinois. I think that’s really lacking for kids who don’t want a massive institution. Ce la vie.</p>

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<p>I agree with poetgrl…especially post #182…</p>

<p>Above some number like $20,000…</p>

<p>These loans for undergrad school are a cancer…And people don’t understand these loans…</p>

<p>A friend of mine, who just filed for bankrupcy, is going to borrow tens of thousands of dollars so his daughter can go to art school. </p>

<p>I don’t think he understands that these loans are permanent.</p>

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<p>^^we have TCNJ here in NJ, another good alternative like Geneseo. Not LAC sized, but not nearly massive.</p>

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<p>"The other family kids whose folks are making 50-75K are going to community colleges or taking out huge loans for said state flagships. </p>

<p>There is a HUGE difference between 50k and 75k. 75k is firmly upper middle income.</p>

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<p>ParentofIvyhopeful…You know I am speaking about MIT…my son is a graduate of MIT (this past year). I would not begin to compare that education or Cornell to the schools I am discussing. I have four kids each of whom have lots of friends. Most of my sons friends have attended excellent schools but not all. I know many of the kids since they were 6 or 7 years of age. My daughter knows mostly kids who have attended 1 of the 2 state U’s that are considered good schools. My daughter is currently attending one of them and this is my viewpoint…Very little real studying required to pass a class with an A or B. Her work does not require critical thinking or analysis. Her friends who seem to be very nice are happy kids but do they think and approach life in the same manner as the kid who attends the tippy top schools?..no. Could all kids get into these top schools?..No. So what is the answer when application time comes around? I personally would never pay for a private school unless it was known to be academically excellent. My idea of excellent includes most of the top LACS. If parents are paying $45,000 or $50,000 for a private school so their kid is not at the state U and needs the fit at the unknown private…than IMHO you have not spent your money wisely. The state U’, yes Flagships are good schools but they do not compare to top privates. Some may take offence to this but that is the cold hard reality. When I said earlier if the cost is not going to “kill you” than go for the best school the kid is admitted to short of takling food off your plate. The difference is huge and the students attending these schools are on a different playing field… just my humble opinion.</p>

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<p>You’re right, PoetGirl, not many highly-ranked LAC’s in Illinois, but friends of ours have gotten fine educations at Augustana, Knox, Millikin, Elmhurst & Blackburn. As far as state publics–yes, there seems to be quite a quality gap between UIUC & the others. But once again, it’s what the student puts into it. I know some solid grads of ISU & NIU.</p>

<p>The real point is that you’re seeing plenty of spillover–as has been pointed out–from parents of Ivy or faux-Ivy hopefuls just not wanting to shell out the $50K+/year, opting to save $50-60K over 4 years by choosing these Top 50-75 OOS publics.</p>

<p>And I stand corrected, teri, on the UNC (USNews #30) vs. UIUC (#47) ranking. 'Course, far be it from me to charge Coastie bias…:)</p>

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<p>My close friend’s son barely got through Augustana College. If it weren’t for the personal attention he got at that tiny school, his parents will swear he would have never made it. No, they did not want to pay the premium over Illinois state colleges, but they knew their son and they knew how the state schools were run having had two kids graduate from them. Their daughter would sit at the computer for hours to get a first crack at certain courses. Even then, she got shut out of a science course that she really wanted and had to take it a semester after graduation. These big schools do require kids to do more to get out in 4 years. She had classes in huge lecture halls and more grad student interaction than with profs. Her brother was taken in hand and had dinners at a number of professor’s houses, got a lot of office time and special “tutoring” by the profs and a lot of advising and mentoring. He was not a great student, with poor organization skills, lack of discipline, and the college really helped him in those lackings instead of dropping him as a result. The parents say it was worth every penny. I agree.</p>

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<p>Yes, I’m a big fan of knox, don’t know much about the rest of them, though. Where is blackburn?</p>

<p>NIU has an arguably good business program. SIU is a good education for a communication major, from what I understand…But, really, for the most part, it’s too bad Eastern hasn’t grown to be 'better."</p>

<p>JMO</p>

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<p>momma-three…there is an incredibly huge difference between the kind of state school your D might attend (if it is not selective and not state flagship) and the kinds of school your sons attend. But there are state flagship schools that are very selective with great educations…such as UVA, U of Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, etc. There are also really great Honors programs at some state universities. But in between your sons’ Ivy and a non-selective state U that is not the flagship school, there are certainly motivated students and demanding courses and really fine educations.</p>

<p>I just don’t get your reasoning that money is not spent wisely at schools like Conn College, Wheaton, Dickinson, Scranton, Skidmore, Emerson, Centre, Muhlenberg, etc. unless it is some elite private school. On the one hand you mention how easy your D’s state school (I assume it is not the flagship one, right?) is and the kinds of students who attend, and the education not being that great but on the other hand, you maintain that unless your kid is gonna attend a top private (top LAC, Ivy, etc.), it is not worth the money for other privates and they may as well go to a state school like your D’s. I don’t get that. The kind of challenging education or level of the student body at a school like Elon, American, Muhlenberg, etc. is not comparable to non-flagship state U that accepts the majority of applicants. The money IS worth it for that kind of education and level of challenge. I don’t agree that only top privates are worth the money or otherwise go to no name non-selective, non-flagship, extremely high admit rate public.</p>

<p>As a parent, if I have a very good student who is highly motivated and craves challenge but is not in the ballpark for the most elite private schools, he/she is not going to be happy at non-flagship state U that is non-selective as the student body would not be a good fit and the classes not challenging enough. A really good student who is not in the ballpark for elites is going to get a more appropriate education at Goucher, Grinell, Rollins, Ithaca, Syracuse, BU, Scranton, etc. than Lyndon State, Bridgewater State, Montclair State, or Ramapo.</p>