If you go to a top 20 school, a common belief is that while you will probably not get a 4.0 like you could at a state school/flagship, getting at least a certain GPA will not adversely affect your medical school application (at least at my school).
Assuming you’re interested in a top medical program, at what point does having a lower GPA have a neutral/harmful effect (ie a 3.X is basically a 4.0, at what point is this not true?)
How low should your GPA be for you to consider transferring to either a state flagship or a school known for grade inflation (like Brown)?
What about switching majors? How helpful is a STEM major vs something like econ (I hear major difficulty is not very helpful)
Harvard average accepted GPA was 3.93
JHU average accepted GPA was 3.91
WashU average accepted GPA was 3.90
UPenn average accepted GPA was 3.88
Stanford average accepted GPA was 3.85
UMichigan average accepted GPA was 3.84
UCSF average accepted GPA was 3.86
Brown students can choose to take as many classes as they want on a S/NC basis (satisfactory/no credit, Brown’s version of pass-fail.) Brown also doesn’t have any distribution requirements. So, the typical Brunonian has a relatively high GPA because most people choose to take courses outside their areas of strength on a S/NC basis. A common pattern in to take 4 courses a semester; one, S/NC and three for grades.
BUT…it is no easier to get an A in a course at Brown–particularly a STEM course-- if you do choose to take it for a grade than it is at most other top colleges. If you want to go to med school, you’re going to have to take the med school required courses for grades. When you do, it will be just as hard to get a good grade in them as it is elsewhere. It’s just not the case that everyone taking organic chem at Brown is going to get an A.
The real benefit of Brown for pre-meds is that students can take courses outside their areas of strength on a S/NC basis and thus avoid worrying about messing up their overall gpa instead of being careful to pick as many guts as possible outside the premed requirements.
Moreover, at a lot of schools–though not all–econ is a tough major. The biggest variable is how much math you have to take to major in econ.
It is not worth trying to game the system for medical school admissions. Students do best where they are happiest- going to a school you dislike just because of its prestige is not a good lifestyle. The top students at any top tier undergrad school will be competitive for top medical schools. These students will have done research and otherwise have more than just a gpa to make them stand out on their applications. Having done research in professor X’s lab while not having a 4.0 shows more than a student who picks classes to get grades.
Another consideration is why the most elite medical schools? Every medical student who graduates from every medical school has the same degree. The top students will be eligible for the top residency programs. Remember that finances play a role in where students attend medical schools. The top students may be choosing medical schools based on their research (perhaps MD/PhD programs) intentions. Just being a top medical school for research does not necessarily mean the best overall clinical experiences.
Do not discount state flagship U’s. Many elite college caliber students populate the honors classes and are there for financial reasons. The flagships may have a small percentage of elite students but usually enough to present a peer group for any student. Getting a 4.0 is not necessarily easier than at an elite private. Depends on the flagship and the courses chosen.
As a physician I applaud those students who choose their major based on interest and not premedical intentions. It is easier to major in a science as many prerequisites for medical school are included in major requirements. Also, many interested in becoming physicians have a strong interest in sciences. My major was chemistry because I likes it, I the chose medicine over grad school (and politely told my HS econ teacher I wasn’t going to major in that- I did well but disliked it). A student can have many interests- choose the undergrad major that you like. Another reason for this- many change their minds about medical school and many do not get in. The US system of undergrad then medical school is wonderful for getting an education. My Indian H says I took a course in everything- compared to his mostly medical subjects (and old British style memorization versus discussion) my education was much more well rounded.
Medical schools, like undergrad institutions, look at more than just the grade point and MCAT scores. Otherwise there would be gpa cutoffs instead of means/medians… And no students with perfect/top scores would not get in.
Oh- an answer to the question asked- post # 3 lists average scores. Wonder what median scores are???
Presuming you are interested because of a real person, not just hypothesizing my answer is go for the econ degree! Having a major one truly likes makes it easier to get better grades. Physicians are more than just medically trained individuals, we/they are a diverse bunch with many different interests. This is the time for the student interested in a subject to pursue it. No regrets in the future for giving up a subject. There will be decades immersed in medical science, now is the time to explore other fields.
Regarding transferring to attempt a better gpa- not a good idea. The knowledge base obtained with the lesser grades will not make it easier at another school. Better to learn what was missed and improve study habits to learn future material. btw- don’t medical schools want ALL transcripts?
Changing majors should be done because a student prefers a different major, not to get better grades for medical school admissions.
Young adults evolve in their goals with experiences in college. Some can have two interests, such as econ and medicine. I wonder WHY this student wants to become a physician, and get a degree from a top institution. It could be because of presumptions about prestige and monetary earnings. There are much easier ways to get rich! With maturity one learns that practicing medicine is the goal, not attending the top institution. I know Harvard educated physicians (undergrad or grad) who are doing/did (oops- likely now also retired) the same job as those from the state schools. I know physicians who ended up in academic medicine at prestigious places from my ordinary medical school. Something most of the elite HS students discover is that there are many students far above them. Perhaps this student is one of those elite, crème de la crème de la creme students. In that case the gpa will be there. If the student is less stratospheric s/he should not be worrying about getting into the elite medical schools. There are plenty of good ones.
I never understood why anybody is discussing the low limit. Why not to aim at A in every class? We are talking about UG, as a reminder - as challenging as it is pre-med can achieve a goal of A in every class, it will be much harder in Med. School, might as well put forward an effort in UG to achieve an A in every class. Think about how much psych. energy you will save for yourself by not worrying what is the lowest GPA that you should have. Graduation from UG and happy gliding into the top 20 of YOUR choice will be great memories to cherish for the rest of your life. Aiming at the lowest will keep you on the perpetual edge. Why to put yourself in such situation?
Hey guys, thanks for the replies. This is really a knee jerk reaction now that I think about it. However, I think there are some things I can get out of this.
Basically my situation was that I had a 3.92 coming into finals and I came out with a 3.785. It seems that my ceiling is in fact a 4.0 and my floor is a 3.7ish. The problem is that I keep hitting my floor based on my first three semesters here. Maybe it’s mental (ie caving when facing the pressure of losing my grades due to finals) or maybe it’s my study skills but my GPA isn’t completely reflecting my abilities right now and it’s really frustrating for me.
@wis75 I heard that a more prestigious medical school gives you a slight advantage in residency search (please tell me it’s not true because it would probably save me a lot of trouble). Also in terms of the major I’m currently undecided as a sophomore. I’m trying to choose between econ/neuroscience/biology.
Just curious because I see this from a lot of people on the forum in random discussions: what are those easier ways to get rich?
@miamidap I like to figure the “low limit” because it lets me know how much wiggle room I have. I always aim for the highest grades I can but I’ve been having personal issues this semester. I wanted to know how deep of a hole I dug for myself.
I’m confused. Using a scale of A = 4.0, A- = 3.7, B+ = 3.3. So as I understand your quote, you been in school 3 semesters, had a 3.92 cumulative GPA after 2 semesters and now after current semester you have a 3.785. Yes? If yes, this suggests you received a couple of B+s this semester and all your other grades have been As, A-s, is this correct? If correct, overall you seem to be doing fine. What am I missing?
There are 2 aspects of residency process. One, getting offered an interview (a whole lot rides on applicant’s med school performance, eg Step scores, third year, etc). Two, matching (a whole lot rides on people skills (eg interview, fitting in, etc). From a broad perspective: look at most recent residency program director’s (2014) survey as to what factors they consider important in residency matching process. Prestige of med school, although not of zero importance, isn’t a big factor without applicant having done well in med school and having people skills.
It seems you want to be at least 3.60 or above to maintain a decent chance at med school. Anything less and you will need to score very high on the MCAT to compensate.
@jugulator20 that was for this semester only. The other semesters averaged out to about a 3.7something. I’ve had a lot of As turn into A-. If I had a few things go my way I would be looking at a completely different GPA. I just wanted to know how much this would affect me (ie something so small, does it have a big impact on my future applications). I think it may be a knee jerk reaction but it may help me clear my head a little and refocus myself
Also what is considered prestigious in terms of medical school? For colleges it seems top 20 does the trick but I feel like there are more than 20 prestigious medical schools, although I could be wrong (and in that survey what do they call medical school prestige)
Edit: In general, do residencies only consider achievements after you get into a medical school (much like how graduate schools only consider achievements in your undergraduate school)?
When you look at the reported GPAs or average GPAs that get into med school, sometimes the devil is in the detail.s
It’s not unusual for a traditional unhooked applicant to find him/herself shut-out without a high GPA.
There’s a forgiveness of sorts allowed for non-trads when they’ve put years and experience between bad grades and good grades. And, I think it helps when the work was medically related: military medic, paramedic, etc.
MD schools do not allow grade replacement…so…the non-premed who did rather poorly, left school and worked for awhile, then later decided s/he wanted to become a doctor, so returned to school and aced the rest of his/her classes will still find that their GPAs are damaged by those old grades from years before. But, med schools are often forgiving in those cases. That’s why you’ll see some odd stats that indicate that someone with a “problem GPA” got admitted.
I understand why MD schools do not allow grade replacement, but I wonder if they’ve ever considered allowing grades that are 6-8+ years old to not be included in GPA?
Yes. When you apply for residencies, PDs are primarily looking at your achievements from med school. The rare exception would be if you had significant publications in undergrad (particularly if the pubs were relevant to the specialty you’re applying to).
If you’ll look through NRMP Program Director Survey, you can see what factors PDs consider (and how they weight them) when considering residency applicants. The results are broken down by specialty.
Texas has the Academic Fresh Start program, but IRC it has to be at least 10 years since the previous grades were earned. And it’s an “all or nothing” deal. You can’t pick and choose which grades you want to do over. You have to start all over as brand new college freshman.
TMDSAS recognizes Academic Fresh Start and doesn’t ask for old transcripts for applicants who have opted for this program. AMCAS and AACOMAs do, though.
You need to figure out your major. Choose the one that most resonates with you, not the one you think will be easiest or improve your medical school chances. Have a plan B- what you will do if you do not go to medical school. What would you do with that common biology or neurosciences degree? If you enjoy economics, go for it.
Do NOT worry about the prestige of medical schools. Concern yourself with learning as much as you can. A year from now you will have a better idea of where you are regarding your gpa and courses to take. You will have begun any undergrad research opportunities. Use your winter break to figure out why you get the grades you do. Then figure out ways you can do better next semester. I’m sure there is a combination of factors you can work on. Enjoy learning and the classes for their own sake, not for the gpa. Less anxiety about grades may free up time and energy to do better.
Eventually you will figure out how your proposed career plans work for you and modify them to enjoy your life. If you enter medical school you will learn which areas of medicine and type of practice you like most. Some thrive on research, others prefer patient care. Some like the surgical, medical or psych worlds. Some want free time for family or other interests. Others thrive on immersion 24/7 in the field. In the next year you may discover that economics advanced classes are what you want instead of those in neuroscience or other biological fields. Medical students come from many majors, each reflecting different personalities and interests.
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Do NOT worry about the prestige of medical schools
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So TRUE!!! They’re all very good. We don’t have “so so” med schools in the US.
The goal is to get accepted to a med school, any med school. If you’re lucky enough to get accepted to more than one, then if you want, pick the one that you perceive as better. But, don’t pooh pooh any med school.
As much as I agree with the above, there are exceptions. I am not saying that certain doors will be closed, I am saying that certain doors will be much wider opened to an applicant from the higher ranked med. school. One example is applying to a specialty that has about 60% matching rate. It is possible to get in, even from DO schools, but it is much harder. So, if there is a certain specialty in mind that happened to be very selective and if an applicant has choices, it is wise at this point of the game, forget the cost comparison and focus on the “end of the game opportunity” comparison. My comment is not based on some theoretical assumptions, but rather on the facts that certain medical students are facing down the road, the facts that may not be so obvious to the medical school applicant and even to the 3rd year medical student. However, personal accomplishments are the most important here, so I am stressing one more time that the doors will not be closed to anybody from any place.
Anyway, as I mentioned previously, the focus of any pre-med starting college should be getting an A in every class. This is the most important “beginner” step. Get a feel of what effort required from you personally, learn to manage your time and then move on to a next step - obtaining medical ECs,…etc. Do not plan too much ahead, useless waste of time that only adds unnecessary pressure and may lead to depression. Take care of yourself, you are a human being with the human being’s needs, learn what relaxes you, have as normal life as possible. Leave all the thinking about medical school behind until the time when you have your college GPA and MCAT score in your hands. Then figure out where you fit based on your personal criteria and your stats.
The other factor to consider is state of residence. If you are lucky enough to be a resident of a state with its own medical school(s) to which only in-state residents are admitted, the GPAs of admitted students tend to be slightly lower on average and the competition for seats is less fierce (which also means that the aamc averages are a bit low because the average in the GPA and MCATs for those schools along with the schools that are open to everyone). Being from CA is tough - they are a net exportor of top med school applicants because the competition for seats in state is so great. If you are from one of the state in the deep south, New Mexico, etc…you get a bit of breathing room. How can you find out? Get the book of admission stats for all the medical schools by state. It gives an exact breakdown by GPA, MCAT, in-state vs. oos, etc…
As much as I agree with the above, there are exceptions. I am not saying that certain doors will be closed, I am saying that certain doors will be much wider opened to an applicant from the higher ranked med.
Exactly. Or, looked at another way, you’ll need higher ‘board’ scores for super competitive residencies if you attend a lower ranked med school.
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This may be true, I’m not sure. I may have a clearer picture next year when S goes thru the matching process. His med school is well-ranked and his scores, so far, have been very good, and he wants a competitive specialty. He seems to be dotting all his i’s and crossing all his t’s (unlike his undergrad years…lol). And, the opportunities that he has there are amazing!
But…getting back to residency applicants …
If you don’t have the stats, I don’t think a well-ranked school will help much. And the unranked SOMs insist that their top students also get competitive residencies.