<p>TONE - the truth?? uummm a bit of both marketing and a faulty survey system. That is not to say that there is not a problem regarding alcohol at W&L - as at hundreds of other schools as well - and there is no one answer or fix for that same problem at most of them - sad to say.</p>
<p>jeepmom- agree that there is an alcohol problem at most schools. I must say I appreciated it when a school rep admitted there was a problem and shared at least a few things they’re trying to do to make a difference. Seems those schools with top “party” ratings were the most defensive when asked. Lehigh for example. Seems to me that schools in isolated locations with a heavy frat scene have the biggest drinking scenes (W&L, Dartmouth, Lehigh etc). The big “football” schools too.</p>
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<p>Add to that list most state schools as well. It is pretty much a universal issue/problem - but at least W&L is trying to address it - more so than other schools it seems. But I don’t want to turn this thread into an alcohol discussion - there is alot of that elsewhere on this board.</p>
<p>TONE at least the rep was open and pretty honest - kuddos for that at least.</p>
<p>My S recently got a three page letter from his dorm counselor - funny, informative, and honest. (Even from a northern New Jerseyian!) He was happy to have the names and hometowns of all 12 guys on his hall – and they have been facebooking ever since. </p>
<p>One paragraph was unequivocal – leave your parents’ liquor cabinet stocked and any fake ID at home, because the dorms are “dry” (no matter what your age, but all freshmen are in the dorms), and fake IDs are an Honor Violation. No exceptions. Ever. This was completely consistent with what my S heard and saw in the past two years of visiting campus. This was also vastly different from what my S heard and saw on other campuses he visited, where dorms were far from dry and clubbing with fake IDs was common at every age. </p>
<p>The result: W&L students are more likely to drink at frats than their counterparts at these other schools where drinking regularly occurs in the dorms and clubs. Because the University owns the frat houses, the University has greater opportunity to influence student drinking. </p>
<p>No one seriously pretends that drinking on this or any other college campus can be eliminated, or that underage students will never participate. But when drinking occurs, it can be effective to limit the times and places, and to foster an environment where others who care about their fellow brothers/sisters/classmates are around for those who may overindulge. With every freshman having to take and pass a summer online course (very thorough) in alcohol education, and a safe ride available to every student, including from off campus locations, the University is hardly turning a blind eye. IMHO, rather strategic and practical in many ways.</p>
<p>Esquette, random question - is Jim your son’s DC? Whoever he is, that is absolutely true. Drinking in the dorms is taken VERY seriously here. You will get a strike. There are incoming freshmen on faceboook talking about how they plan on prepartying/postpartying (or even partying) in the dorms. Hopefully they’ll learn as soon as they get to campus, you do NOT want to get a strike your first week on campus (or ever - there are some strict punishments that come with them).</p>
<p>Stickershock and Toneranger, once again there are no committees being formed in the fraternities to vote on kids. Fraternity rush is much more informal. By the time you go into rush you know what fraternities want you just because it came naturally. Out of the three fraternities I rushed, I got bids from the exact two I knew I would and didn’t get bids from the one I knew I wouldn’t because I didn’t know the guys well enough. It really is a natural thing, even though for some reason you refuse to believe it. I don’t know how often I have to say this but FRATERNITY RUSH IS NOT THAT FORMAL! I don’t understand how you can know its “artificial and forced” when you’ve never been part of it.</p>
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All W&L Greek events are completely open. There is a certain fraternity on campus who I spent a lot of time with at the beginning of the year but we later had a falling out (in a similar way as friends have falling outs), partially over IM football and I ended up not even rushing them. But several of my friends are in that fraternity and I still went there a few times during winter and spring when they had bands. I was not made to feel like a “reject” and I did not feel awkward at all. I’m not going to just walk into their house randomly but if they’re having a party and my friends invite me or if they’re having a band I like - I’ll still go there.</p>
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A year ago today I would have been very anti-Greek. Before I got to campus, and for a long time during the fall, I looked down on the Greek system believing all the stereotypes. But people told me to try it anyway and keep an open mind and for once I actually listened. I don’t see why a person has to be pro or anti-Greek. I do think there are still flaws with Greek systems nationwide and at W&L and they are definitely not perfect but I don’t see why you have to be so close-minded that you can’t give a system you don’t have personal experience with a chance.</p>
<p>Dima, motherdear describes a network of ALUMNI getting involved, for gosh sakes! I’d call this a committee. It’s almost inconceivable to me that any grown woman would be involved in interviewing local girls to give a thumbs up or down for a sorority, but that apparently goes on:
THis gives new meaning to the phrase “Get a life.”</p>
<p>All W&L greek events are open? Wow, how kind of you all to allow an outsider in who hasn’t been screened and vetted and judged worthy of your company.</p>
<p>I absolutely see the need to choose candidates wisely for important things like jobs and colleges and the surgeon who will operate on me. FIt, skills, aptitude, credentials all play a role. But selecting a member of a frat or sorority is not a crucial decision. Sorry, it’s not.</p>
<p>While I have no knowledge of W&L or its sad little greek world, I am familiar with greek systems in general. I don’t have to have been a member to find them distasteful. They are just big high school cliques that control real estate.</p>
<p>How many times must I keep pointing out that I am only talking about fraternity rush and have you keep countering with sorority rush, which I already said I dislike. I have not heard of any situation of alumni being involved in fraternity rush. As for sorority rush, its not a group of older women getting together and judging girls, Motherdear describes it better below.</p>
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There really is no winning with you - first you complain about fraternities not allowing people they reject to attend functions now this when I point out you are wrong. Clearly you have had your mind made up without knowing anything at all about the Greek System here. I see now that you won’t listen to anything I say and I’m fine with that but for the sake of the other posters here, why try to spread the negativity?</p>
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<li><p>A woman graduate is an alumna. Two or more women graduates are alumnae. Alumni is the male plural form. Learn your Latin.</p></li>
<li><p>You clearly don’t understand the purpose of a recommendation. Just as a teacher’s recommendation isn’t the singular piece of information that gets the applicant into college, an alumna’s reference doesn’t get the potential new member into a group. The purpose of a rec is to provide a well-rounded picture of the young lady. Alumnae don’t vote on the prospectives. </p></li>
<li><p>I actually find it sad that you can be so closed-minded about something of which you clearly are unwilling to be a part.</p></li>
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<p>Dima,
OK, perhaps the sorority rush details on this board tainted my view on things. But I still think getting bids from social groups is a lot more formal than trying out different activities and forming groups of friends without a "bid " process. We can argue about this until we’re blue in the face. Sounds like you’ve been converted and it’s great that you’re happy with your choice. But I believe I can say the greek system doesn’t appeal to me even though I’m not there at W&L. I went to a college with sorororities and I had no interest in joining them. It’s OK to like the greek system - but it’s also OK to have reservations and to point them out. This is not close minded behavior - just personal preference. For those with negative impressions or who are on the fence, I would recommend a school where at least hafl the population is independent. Keeping your options open is a good thing…</p>
<p>Just because a school is mostly greek doesn’t mean you can’t be independent? This is going back to the start of this. Don’t go to a southern school if you’re a northerner, don’t go to a conservative school if you’re a liberal, don’t go to a mostly Greek school if you might stay independent.</p>
<p>I’m glad there are so many people here who ignored that advice. Otherwise W&L would be very very boring.</p>
<p>Caught me in a Latin error. Guess I wouldn’t win a recommendation! I make lots of spelling errors and typos, too.</p>
<p>I do understand the purpose of your recommendations. I think you don’t get how absolutely SILLY most non-greek supporters find this whole process. Regardless of who votes or doesn’t vote. Sure the process might vary from school to school. But you can’t be serious that getting into a frat or sorority is as important as getting into college. Or can you?</p>
<p>Dima: I make no distinctions between the two. It is the IDEA of frats & sororities that I hate. The pathetic need to be labeled worthy by a group of equally insecure girls & boys. Some events are open? Well, the membership isn’t, correct? It reminds me of the “colored days” at beaches in days past.</p>
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<li><p>Not a single person here said it is as important, the comparison was of some similarities in the process</p></li>
<li><p>What is the IDEA of fraternities and sororities? When I meet someone who joined a fraternity or sorority because of a need to be labeled worthy, I’ll let you know, but I haven’t met one yet. But thanks for the compliments, I really do appreciate being called pathetic and insecure. You’re saying that everyone needs to be accepted and welcome to everything. I don’t see how that is different from saying Harvard should let anyone in, anyone should get whatever job they want, get into whatever club they want, have whatever friends they want, etc. I would love to play for the New York Yankees, I would love to be friends with Derek Jeter and A-Rod but for some reason I don’t think I would fit into that crowd and it just wouldn’t work. Seems I have a pathetic need to be labeled worthy by the extremely insecure Jeter and A-Rod.</p></li>
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<p>STICK - it is very obvious that you are against the frat/sor system - but you could be a bit less rude about it. There are those folks who do have interest in them - even tho you obviously don’t - and some of your comments are really un-called for…‘‘labeled worthy by a group of equally insecure girls & boys’’… you seem to be saying that you and yours are far superior to these girls and boys - which you and yours are NOT.</p>
<p>Everyone has choices - and those choices should be respected - not chatised by one who does not have personal experience with the discussed greek system of W&L. Please refrain from the types of comments that are essentially insulting to those who DO have interest and/or participate - your judgement of these people is unnecessary and unfair.</p>
<p>You are very entitled to have your opinion - but not to insult others about their interest or opinion.</p>
<p>TONE - personal appeal and lack of interest are perfectly ok - being a part of a frat/sor is not for everyone. I respect your perspective on the greek system - you made choices that were good for you.</p>
<p>StickerShock -</p>
<p>Why isn’t your uncivil slinging of epithets at those who don’t share your views the very sin of “silly” and exclusionary judgmentalism that you ascribe to Greek life?</p>
<p>When encountering such loquacious hostility, those in my profession have a well established rule: give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.</p>
<p>ESQUETTE - ^^ VERY well said - ty</p>
<p>I second.^^^^</p>
<p>im laughing at you sticker shock. i hope youre kidding and have some sort of elevated dry humor that we’re not aware of. if youre serious, take a step back and re-evaluate your life.</p>
<p>motherdear, isn’t W&L coeducational? Don’t you think your Latin correction is a little uber-correct? Most of the reference books I work with (I’m an editor) accept “alumni” as unisex. For example, Webster’s online:</p>
<p>"Alumnus and alumna both come from Latin and preserve Latin plurals. Alumnus is a masculine noun whose plural is alumni, and alumna is a feminine noun whose plural is alumnae. Coeducational institutions usually use alumni for graduates of both sexes. But those who object to masculine forms in such cases may prefer the phrase alumni and alumnae or the form alumnae/i, which is the choice of many women’s colleges that have begun to admit men.</p>
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<li><p>On Latin: yes, W&L is coeducational. However, MotherDear was not talking about writing recs for W&L students of any gender; she was talking about writing recs for girls. Ergo, alumnae would be appropriate.</p></li>
<li><p>I was not Greek/am not Greek. I went to school in Massachusetts, where respectable girls did not join sororities. I never saw it as “needing to buy” friends or whatever; I just had no interest in it. That is why StickerShock’s complaints about the system astound me. I simply cannot see the system as anything too different from other networks. </p></li>
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<p>I interview students who apply to my alma mater and do not consider it to be a waste of time. Most of what I look for is “fit” with the school. The kids I’ve met are all phenomenal; even knowing that most of them won’t get in, talking to them is still a great experience. I know that a lot of what my college looks for is “fit,” much in the way that sororities and fraternities do the same. It makes for a better college time to be around people who all want to be there.</p>
<p>I’m a very active alumna and participate in local alumni events. I meet people and hang out with them only because we happened to use the same classrooms as undergrads - but I like all of them. Are those activities akin to time in a sorority? Yeah. </p>
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<li> At most colleges, you simply cannot meet and befriend everyone on campus. There is no requirement that you be best friends forever with your Greek sisters or brothers, but generally, most people really like them. So why not have a system which “sorts” people by personality, knowing that they’ll all enjoy hanging out with people with whom they have things in common? Is this really worse than befriending people in your dorm or classes? The way that most people meet is pretty arbitrary (and conditioned on luck). What’s the issue?</li>
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<p>Back again to the original post - why the negative views on W&L? Is it related to the dominant greek scene? Perhaps - for some. Others may view the greek scene as a postiive. But, I can’t think of any other school that is 80% frat - that’s a VERY high percentage. Even though it’s an open system, I would still think twice if I had concerns about my fit with the greek scene. Sure, you can be an independent, but there are very few who are. If I loved the idea of greek life, I might also have little interest in a school that was only 5% greek. I believe it IS a factor in making your college choice. Balance here…it’s OK to like greek but it’s also OK to have some negative feelings. It’s all about fit - and not everyone is a good fit at W&L.</p>