<p>Toneranger, I will agree with that - it is a much more balanced statement than the last one. If you can’t see yourself a part of a Greek system at all, after understanding that it doesn’t fit all those wonderful stereotypes people have about it, then you should think twice about W&L (though not exclude it altogether). Your last post essentially said that anyone who is not completely pro-Greek should stay away. If that happened, then W&L would be a school only for those that already knew they loved the Greek scene coming in and there would be much less diversity of thought around.</p>
<p>My my, we do have some folks here rather defensive regarding criticizm of the greek system, what with attacks on sticker and all. Why the interest in attacking a different view?</p>
<p>The fact is that the greek system is, by its nature, polarizing. It is exclusive, not inclusive. There is no other way. You show me a greek house with open membership, and I’ll bet it is struggling financially. </p>
<p>Yes, there are many pluses to greek membership. For some, there are also minuses. And the system’s impact on nonmembers in unavoidable. To deny this is just not reasonable. Why should one be surprised that some folks have negative reactions to an inherently exclusionary system?</p>
<p>Newmassdad, some posters were simply responding to the harsh words sticker used. We spent three pages answering that criticism until it devovled into plain insults. Criticizing the Greek system is fine, and will be answered with counterarguments. But once you get down to simply insulting the Greek system, well those of us who are members (or have children who are members or even potential future members) may take that personally.</p>
<p>You show me a college with open enrollment, a job who accepts everyone, a group of friends who will let anyone just join them, and you will see it is inferior.</p>
<p>Besides, how exclusive is a system that close to 80% are members, and all the others are not by choice?</p>
<p>Where are the counterarguments?</p>
<p>I believe college kids should be open to meeting people from all walks of life. It is far too easy to fall back into your comfort zone & associate only with like-minded people. That is what the greek system does. It labels a group of people as “suitable to associate with.” You can’t pretend that greek kids will be challenged to constantly reach out for new experiences. The system fosters a parochial approach to college. That’s a bad thing. I will ammend my statement that greeks have a “pathetic need to be labeled worthy by a group of equally insecure girls & boys.” Maybe only half of the greeks are insecure. The other half feel superior to other people & chose to make a public stance announcing their membership in a selective group. Forming friendships and associations through everyday conversations and encounters is too risky, it seems. The wrong kind of people might slip into the network. Can’t have that, can we?</p>
<p>Someone in another thread brought up the idea that greek life is an anachronism, like beauty pagents, that you might want to disassociate yourself from in the future. Good point. It’s like a tatoo that seemed wonderful when you got it, but not so great as time passes. If a greek kid brought his frat up in a job interview I was conducting, I’d immediately question his ability to be an independent thinker. Is he a follower, I’d wonder? Afraid of challenges? I really don’t hold a stereotype of W&L sorority sisters with big hair and heavy pancake make-up wearing pastel twin sets. The greek life is just the antithesis of what college life should be.</p>
<p>my father sat me down the other day to talk about joining a fraternity at W&L. he started with his thoughts on his own fraternity experience in college. after saying that he indeed regretted some of the things he did while a kappa sig, he never regretted for one moment the decision to pledge. he went on to explain that his ONLY connections come from his fraternity, that he has not “kept up” with any other former friends he had in high school in college. a real bond existed among everyone in his fraternity, even between brothers who may not have been particularly fond of each other. like i said earlier, he admitted to things that he wish he hadn’t done (a lot of which i think deals with how he held himself aloof to everyone outside fraternity life), but he would never in a million years change his decision. although he playfully tries to get me to go kappa sig as well, the decision of which fraternity (or whether i join one at all) is totally in my hands. he supports whatever decision i make about it, but told me to proceed with caution.</p>
<p>my point is that while of course there are many negatives to greek life, the positives seem to outweigh them; i think it is only fair to conceive such an opinion after talking to a former fraternity boy about it.</p>
<p>Greek Life: The positive may outweigh the negatives for some but not all. It’s not the right choice for everyone. I didn’t participate and I still keep in touch with my friends from college -so you don’t need a frat or sorority to have tight long-lasting friendships. Although I have a somewhat negative view of the greek scene, it’s because, based on my personal experience and exposure, it does not fit my values and preferences.
My son is starting as a freshman this year at a school with a greek presence. I have kept my thoughts to myself. He’s going in with an open mind and will make the decision that is right for him. What I like is that the school is not dominated by frats - so, in my view - it will be easier for him to make the choice NOT to participate. To me, this is the simple concept of diversity. Frat participation at W&L is 80%. This is a startling statistic in my mind. I think it scares some people away.
I do agree that the school needs to attract a sizable population of open minded folks to increase the diversity on campus. W&L is a just a tougher sell in this area…and I think it’s one of the reasons it gives out generous merit money -even though it’s a top-ranked school. The academics, the quality of the professors, the beauty of the campus, and the friendliness of the students are all very big pluses - add a few $ to the equation and I think W&L is well on it’s way to attracting kids that break the mold. The campus may look and feel very different in 10-20 years.</p>
<p>Pardon me, newmasdad, why is fair to label posters as “touchy” for taking offense to being crudely insulted and dismissed as “silly,” “sad,” “insecure” (and worse), based solely on our voluntary choice to respect that Greek life can be a healthy and satisfying choice for some college students and campuses? </p>
<p>Review of this thread shows that not one single poster has insisted that every single college student, whether at W&L or elsewhere in the land, should “go Greek,” whereas there is at least one vociferous anti-Greek poster here who dogmatically insists that every single college student at W&L and in all the land should not do so because it is “the antithesis of what college should be.” W&L posters, many of whom have actually participated in Greek life, are advocating only an open-mind and an informed individual choice, with respect for those who choose not to participate in Greek life. They ask only the same choice and respect from those who “know nothing about” Greek life at W&L. But StickerShock shrilly advocates her no-Greek, no-choice message, with disrespect for those who do choose to participate in Greek life. Who is being “insecure,” “sad,” and “touchy” in this debate? Who is being exclusionary here?</p>
<p>Toneranger seems to understand the middle ground, articulating her aversion to Greek life while showing tolerance and respect to those who favor it. She has something to teach you, StickerShock.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>…because the person who makes the negative statements is as entitled to say that as you are to say positive things.</p>
<p>IMHO, “touchy” is when folks take issue with differing opinions that are general comments, not aimed at any specific individual. To do othwise strikes me as both defensive and intolerant of other views.</p>
<p>But I suspect you know this. You just don’t like disagreement.</p>
<p>toneranger – is your son’s university an open or closed Greek system? </p>
<p>Although my son thinks he will “go Greek,” he visited and was accepted at other schools that had a closed Greek system, with a much lower participation rate in Greek life. He felt very uncomfortable with that, partly for the “exclusionary” reasons discussed here. He was concerned about the segregation between the 30% of the student body who was Greek, and the 70% who was not. He actually saw a student turned away from a party because he was not on “the list.” So from talking to Greeks on those other campuses, he concluded that Greek life could operate as an exclusive and isolating subset of the university social life in that environment. </p>
<p>In contrast, when he visited W&L, he really liked that most of the students were welcome participants in the same university social life, either because they are among the 75-80% who are Greek or are independents who can participate in Greek life if and when they choose to. He went to a rather famous W&L theme party designed after a German “techno” dance club, held off campus by one of the frats. Upon arrival, he had to “walk the velvet rope line,” at the end of which a “bouncer-brother” made of show of asking his name so he “could check whether it was on the list.” After much flipping of pages, he was “found” on it, even though he knew no one but his student escort (who was not a brother) before that night. The list? A printout of the entire W&L student body. The fellow partiers – students from too many frats and srats for him to remember, as well several independents to whom he was introduced by the Greek students. That made a big impression on him.</p>
<p>newmasdad –</p>
<p>I certainly respect StickerShock’s right to hold an opposing view of Greek life – that being precisely my point about tolerating choice and showing respect. </p>
<p>And, being a professional in the protection of First Amendment rights, I will defend her right to say anything she wishes, in any manner she chooses. Yet, although free speech has constitutional provenance, it is not without consequences. StickerShock must be willing to accept the consequences of what she says, including distaste for her lack of civility. And questions concerning the hypocrisy of her anti-choice diatribe about judging others, while she chooses to pass final judgment on Greek life at a school she has never visited and admittedly “knows nothing about.”</p>
<p>More rope please . . . .</p>
<p>esquette- my s is going to a big school - he reports that some frat parties are closed and some are open. He visited over the summer (pre freshman) and had no problem getting in frat parties. Over 80% of the male students are not in frats - so there’s other social scenes as well. I agree about your son’s concern though - we visited a few smaller campuses where closed parties with lists were the rule (yuk). Yes, not all greek systems are the same…</p>
<p>why does everyone keep focusing only on the large percentage of people in greek life? is that the only aspect of W&L? is that all the school has to offer? have you forgotten that it is a top LAC with the best professors, a gorgeous campus, a historic down, and great D III sports? it is the ONLY TOP LAC with an accredited business program, journalism program and law school. is all of that just overlooked because a lot of kids are in fraternities? give me a break.</p>
<p>pirt - the positives are there (I mentioned them in earlier posts) but the dominant greek scene is also a factor. A good fit with the social environment is as important as academic fit. W&L IS unique - again I can’t think of another school with 80% of students in frats. If that’s not a eye opener for some - fine. But you can’t dismiss it. Again, the subject of the post was - why the negative perception? IMO - Right or wrong - this factor is one of them. Running a thread like this for any other school would tend to bring out the negatives for that school (too big, too small, too liberal, ugly campus, yada yada). All to be taken with a grain of salt…</p>
<p>Considering that W&L has one of the most famous alumni networks going, how can any thinking person really believe that the kids there are exclusionary? It’s a lot like BC or Williams in how much the alums care about the school and are willing to help out current students or recent grads. No requirement of frat admission.</p>
<p>I had never been to a frat in college; my university was not very Greek (maybe 15%). In many ways, all of the people I knew there who were Greek were just not the types I wanted to hang out with. When I moved to the South, I saw that a lot of my friends (almost all) had been Greek - the ones that had not went to schools without frats/sororities. The fact that I was not Greek is not an issue.</p>
<p>This is all a very long way of saying that I see nothing wrong with the frat/srat system. If 80% of students participate, you can bet that almost everyone who wants to be part of the system is a part of it. How is that exclusive? Isn’t that more inclusive than a place where everyone wants to be Greek but can’t be? Doesn’t that also lend a lot of diveristy to the Greek scene - there’s just too many people to not have some different viewpoints?</p>
<p>
I agree . . . look through all of my CC posts and you will see how I spend my life announcing how much better I am than everyone for being Greek.
Haven’t I already said that that is exactly what informal rush during the fall is all about?
Well finally we’ve found an example of exclusivity and leaving someone out because you think you’re better than them that relates to the Greek system! Its just a shame too, because you may be getting bad impressions about some great applicants. Depending on what they did for their fraternity, they may already be experts on event planning (and no not just parties - volunteer events, alumni reunions, etc), risk management, advertising and recruitment, managing funds for major organizations, and a myriad of other things. Tell me, who is judging and being exclusive here? Is my faternity affiliation in my resume? No, not because I am embarassed of it but because I know that when I go back north there are plenty of people just like you who are going to be making incorrect judgments on something they probably know nothing about.
There’s about 16 pages worth all total. We’ve answered every claim you made, to which you have responded by repeating the same exclusivity comment that we have already answered and just adding more insults. I am sorry if I am "touchy’ when someone calls me and some of my best friends insecure and pathetic. </p>
<p>Oh and toneranger is right. The views that many people have about the Greek system are what keeps W&L from being right up there with Amherst and Williams. That is why it is a very valid issue on this thread, because that IS the negativity. It is unfortunate but that’s just the way it is. Luckily there are still enough open-minded students areound that W&L can continue to succeed.</p>
<p>nothing sets W&L apart from AWS in my opinion; i feel like the only thing that puts it a half-notch below in many people’s minds is that it is in the South with a strong greek system. if you look at the numbers of the entering class, the prominence/ success of alumni, the quality of professors, the history of the school, etc., W&L is right there with AWS, bowdoin, middlebury, etc.</p>
<p>Aren’t some 65% of MIT men in fraternities? Weren’t there some highly publicized incidents of drinking deaths every year?</p>
<p>Williams doesn’t have fraternities. To those who are from the South or would want to end up there, this can be a big drawback, as lack of Greek membership can be detrimental.</p>
<p>Yet NO ONE has brought up those schools and said that their “extreme” stance on frats might be detrimental to having diversity of thought. </p>
<p>The two things keeping W&L out of the ranks of the top, top LACs are:
- the fact that it’s in the South, not New England; and
- the frats.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, it’s always in the Top 10 Happiest Students; always recognized for its super-loyal alums; and has some of the smallest classes and most involved professors imaginable. (One benefit of going to small schools in the middle of nowhere - you have to hang with the professors, because there’s no one else around.) </p>
<p>I’ll never forget when I went to Lexington on a nice day in April and saw nothing but kids playing volleyball and badminton out on the lawns of their houses. My alma mater didn’t have that - maybe a few people would hang out on the lawn, maybe the RA of a freshman dorm would get people together for volleyball, but it was the exception, not the rule.</p>
<p>ariesathena, with a CC name like that, and such cogent points, you definitely are part of the “greek” life of W&L!</p>
<p>“…he went on to explain that his ONLY connections come from his fraternity, that he has not “kept up” with any other former friends he had in high school in college…” pirt: This proves my point better than anything!</p>
<p>If you read my post, you would realize frat membership would be a red flag in an interview. I never said I would exclude someone on the basis of their membership. But it would certainly raise the questions I posed. Just another hurdle to jump over for the candidate.</p>
<p>I’m bored with this thread. Just thought I’d offer some insight to greek lovers. There is a trade-off for the instant security you get by nesting together with your greek buddies. It’s more than just the perception of cliquishness that will follow you. Greek life can actually insulate you from the challenges of broadening your world and leave you much poorer for the experience. Something for you all to consider.</p>
<p>OP – unwritten – are you still there? Question answered, and then some no doubt! Hope you are keeping an open mind about Greek life, W&L, and Greek life at W&L. And planning to visit. There’s nothing like seeing and choosing for yourself . . . .</p>
<p>Anyone starting a new thread on Parent’s Forum – positive reactions to W&L?</p>