Bad Reactions to W&L ?

<p>Nobody knows for a fact WHY people decide to display flags and other symbols of past historical events. FWIW, I believe that there is quite a difference between having such displays in museums–among other historical artifacts–and displaying them in semi-private property. I don’t think that anyone understand that it is OK for the Nazi flag to adorn the walls of a German War museum, but that it serves a different purpose in the meeting halls of White Supremacists. And before, all the Generals jump up, please note that I do NOT equate the Confederate Flag to the Nazi movement, and that I find the movement to change the Trident form because of its alleged Swatiska ressemblance extremely farfetched. </p>

<p>Lastly, I believe that rejecting the criticisms in MASS while decrying overgeneralizations and stereotypes shows that the finer points were missed. There is a huge difference between acknowledging the current climate at W$L and criticizing the exact fabric of the school.</p>

<p>xiggi im not sure of your connection to the school, but muct have an awfully close one to know about the controversy of the trident’s resemblance to a swastika. thank you for acknowledging how utterly ridiculous that is.</p>

<p>Just to expand on what has been said before–Robert E. Lee’s continuing influence on W&L is not wrapped up in any kind of “Oh, the south will rise again” nonsense but rather for his status as a gentleman, a strong leader, an excellent general who was both a good tactitian and beloved by his troops, a pious family man, and so on. The feeling I’ve always gotten–as a midwesterner transplanted into southern culture–is that Lee is adored not for so much for the cause he fought for, but rather for the man he was.</p>

<p>I will admit that some of the fraternities (KA, I’m looking at you; I hope you’ve changed since my time in Lexington) veered into the more obnoxious objectifications of the Old South. But I don’t think that’s the prevailing ethos at W&L.</p>

<p>FWIW, the Political Science department is actually titled “Politics.” A very strong and popular program.</p>

<p>Side note: Did you know that the only portrait of Lee in his Army Blues hangs at the US Miltary Academy? He was the Superintendant there. Great training for his term as the President of Washington College.</p>

<p>xiggi - I respect your references to the ISI report - that can be helpful information to anyone wishing to consider the entire specifics of it. Your referral adds facts to the conversation. And I respect your feelings about frats in general, because you are of course entitled to have and articulate that opinion. And lord knows I respect your invaluable posts on SAT prep!!!</p>

<p>What concerned me in part is that the impressions you posted about W&L reflect no personal knowledge about life or people at W&L, gained from visits or other specific interactions with W&L. I now understand your points to be as follows:</p>

<p>(1) I dislike frats/sororities for several reasons;
(2) I am “progressively liberal” politically and/or socially;
(3) 75-80% of W&L students are Greek; and
(4) W&L has a higher percentage of conservative students than most other top-ranked LACS (although there are not statistics on this), so therefore
(5) I don’t think that I or others who share my views about Greek life and/or politics would be happy at W&L, and
(6) Based on these factors, I do not have a favorable impression of W&L.</p>

<p>This is a relevant response to the OP’s question about why some people who have never visited and have no personal relationship with the school have a negative reaction to W&L. As no doubt you acknowledge, those who do not share your concerns as to (1), (2), (3), or (4) may not share your (5) and (6) views. If I gave the impression that I missed these points, I apologize. </p>

<p>What also seemed somewhat unfair to me was your suggestion that the “caustic” effect of Greek life at W&L has driven “progressively liberal” professors to do “battle” with their “ultra conservative” students. Where is the factual support for the conclusion that such conflict exists at W&L to the debilitating effect you suggested? For such a cause and effect conclusion? I don’t read that in the ISI report. Nor are we hearing this from people who have visited, attended, or lived in the W&L community. How do you reconcile the suggestion that such a battle is raging with the legacy of exceptionally close faculty-student relationships, esp since the school historically has had comparable levels of Greek life and conservatism?</p>

<p>Pirt, I don’t believe that serious and sober observers overlook or minimize the historical significance of Robert E. Lee’s time at W&L or the historical impact of W&L generally. The Honor Code is a fine tradition, for example. Interestingly, I have found that you hardly ever hear about G. Washington at W&L. LOL. Heck, even Traveller has a plaque dedicated to him on campus; “Here lies…”</p>

<p>I also don’t think there is rage from people who just are not comfortable with the conservative social aspects of W&L. That being said, neither southern aristocrats nor political conservatives at W&L have horns and hooves, but please do not deny the fact that they are in residence in great numbers, and that a few people with malicious attitudes about race, gender and yankees travel among them. Does that make the campus intolerable? Not in my experience.</p>

<p>Someone cited the mock convention/election. That’s another fine W&L tradition and Democrats/liberal thinkers are very involved in it. Hell, Mario Cuomo and Abbey Hoffman spoke to large crowds at W&L.</p>

<p>Conservatives don’t need to be defensive. I met more than a few white, upper-middle class conservative students from W&L and befriended them. Despite our differences in perspective, I didn’t ‘fear’ their opinions. So there is no need for W&L supporters to be insecure about the culture of the place.</p>

<p>For historical notation - the confederate flag has importance - BUT… for the present time - we ALL live in the United States of Amierca - of which the red, white and blue AMERICAN flag flies proudly over W&L.</p>

<p>The 2006 edition of ISI’s Choosing The Right College called W&L a national treasure.</p>

<p>LOL, can anyone deny the prevelance of the Stars & Bars vs. the Stars & Stripes in student residences in and around W&L? As for official buildings, school facilities and the like, for goodness sakes, is it a revelation that the American flag is on the mast at most, if not all, college property in this country? I think not.</p>

<p>From all the descriptions in this forum thread, I can’t wait to make a visit this fall down to W&L. Seriously. It sound like an interesting, beautiful place. </p>

<p>Serious question: Is it football crazed there? Do I need to check both W&L and VMI calendars to find an “open” weekend?</p>

<p>All I know is that it’s impossible to get rooms locally during Homecoming and Parents’ Weekends for either school.</p>

<p>Be aware we dress for our games as do most colleges in the South. Jackets and ties (preferably bow) for the men, sundresses and pearls for the women.
If you and yours can handle it, we will embrace you with our Southern hospitality.</p>

<p>laxer, you are serious? As an alum of michigan state, where proper football game garb was beer stained sweats (under a parka late season, of course), seeing the scene you describe would in itself be worth the trip!</p>

<p>So W&L is a football school, too? I presume VMI is.</p>

<p>Laxer- I seriously want to know- will formal attire be required for the Wake Forest game during family weekend? Do you mean most woman will be wearing dresses and the men in jackets?</p>

<p>Esquette, allow me to shed some light on a couple of issues:</p>

<p>First, I would suggest to post " I think that Xiggi is a “progressively liberal” politically and/or socially" in the Parent’s Café and enjoy the deluge of protests from the “true” liberals. </p>

<p>For the record, I am a conservative, and some of views tend to edge towards the ultra conservatist side. However, I also try–not always with success–to understand what the other side has to say. In this case, except for my position on fraternities, and maybe on the overly “in your face” display of a flag, you would be hard pressed to find any criticisms of my part towards WL. A school that exhibits a profound nostalgia for Ronald Reagan ought to be most pleasing to me! </p>

<p>Further, allow me to repeat that I have NOt misrepresented the fact I have no personal ties to the school, except that it fell in a category of interest for my younger sister. While I cannot travel to every campus that might be of interest, I try to read as much as I can about the school. This is why I pointed interested parties to the ISI report, a book written by people who tend to be pro-conservative. In addition, I go a bit further than that and try to find “strategic documents” published by the school AND the replies or rebuttals expressed in the students’ newspapers. This important to appreciate the directions taken by a school. Will WL strive to emulate Williams or Wheaton, or Amherst. or Hillsdale is rather unclear, but the position of the faculty and administration does not seem too hard to understand, nor the implications that the student body is bound to change in the future.</p>

<p>I did not imagine the accounts related in the ISI book, or in the Triton Online, I did READ them. I would hope that you can find the time to check the book during your next visit to Barnes and Noble, and check the accuracy of my statements. </p>

<p>Lastly, while I wrote that I would never apologize for my stance on fraternities, I don’t do it for the sake of being confrontational as much as for framing my posts correctly. Currently at WL, you have a fraternity that has been banned for a hazing incident. Many people on CC know that I lost my best friend in a hazing incident at the UC Boulder. You can read a lot more about it at <a href=“http://www.thegordiefoundation.org/home/default.asp[/url]”>http://www.thegordiefoundation.org/home/default.asp&lt;/a&gt; . I do not expect everyone–or even a majority of people-- to agree with my opinions on this issue, but I do not run away from defending mine with passion, even if they are not highly popular.</p>

<p>First, let me introduce myself. I am a Yankee (raised in New York City, and no not in the nice parts). I am a first generation immigrant. I am a die-hard liberal (and always will be). I know what life is like on food stamps. I do not own a mansion (nor even a house) and I do not drive a fancy car (try a '96 Taurus). I am half-Jewish. I am a product of the NYC public school system and had never attended a school that is even close to 50% white until college. I am also proud to be a sophomore at Washington and Lee University, here on a full-ride scholarship. Therefore I do not exist.</p>

<p>I am not even sure where to begin tackling everything that has been said on this thread, except by wishing the OP cross-posted on the W&L forum. First off, I find that both sides actually know very little about the “Confederate Flag.” First of all, what most people call the “confederate flag” actually was not for most of the time the Confederacy existed. Many people would not even recognize what was actually the Confederate Flag for most of the nation’s existence - the ACTUAL stars and bars. If you want to know what it looks like, it is very similar to Georgia’s current flag. The flag that is flown from a minority of student’s windows is actually the Battle Flag. The Battle Flag had nothing to do with slavery, but it is representative of a generation of people who died defending their homeland (personally, I still can’t stand it because they were shooting at Americans, but lets at least get some facts on here). </p>

<p>Second, I agree with Xiggi that it would be good to look at the history of Beta Theta Pi at W&L. In fact if you come to campus take a trip down to the Beta Theta Pi house, it is right across the street from Lee Chapel. It stands there empty. The fraternity disbanded. A symbol that hazing is not tolerated by the school that owns your fraternity house and that if you do it, the consequences can be severe. Same with the alcohol policy, there is currently a fraternity on campus that is one strike away from suspension because of things as simple as having a party during the wrong day of the week. Does that sound like an out of control drinking culture to you?</p>

<p>To temper what Laxer said a bit, I would wager that three-quarters of the male W&L population (and that’s probably a serious understatement) has no idea how to go about tying a bow-tie. And the next gentleman who decides to wear a coat to a football game will probably die of heat-stroke (I made the mistake of wearing a black shirt once and felt like I was going to collapse any moment in the Southern sun . . .). In fact, I’ve met quite a few guys here who can’t even tie your run-of-the-mill tie. (Luckily if they join a fraternity they will learn, which could save them once it comes time for job-searching).</p>

<p>Is it true that some students were opposed to coeducation? Yes. Is it true that a few professors were? Yes, but not many - just about every college in America, including W&L, has a liberal faculty. Is it true that whole classes of alumni were? Yes, I heard the class of '46 was adamantly against coeducation. Unfortunately you don’t run into class of '46 members or class of '52 members or even class of '86 members much anymore. Gee, I wonder where they all went. For some reason, every student at W&L knew when they were applying that when they got to W&L it would be close to if not at 50/50. I wonder why . . . maybe because by the time they applied in 2002,2003,2004 or 2005 it already was. If any of them had a problem with coeducation, they could have gone to Randolph-Macon.</p>

<p>I will finish this with what I posted about the Washington Post Magazine on the Shepherd Povery Program article on the W&L forum:</p>

<p>"It is a wonderful program - I haven’t had a chance to take the intro class yet but I have heard great things and it is always bringing in interesting speakers and it has definitely helped bring service to the forefront of the minds of W&L students (hopefully somewhere it will stay for their entire lives).</p>

<p>I am happy that the article is showing off our program to the country in a positive light, it is a great program. The only problem I have with the article is that the author acts like a typical journalist. To make something really good look not only really good but also really special, you make everything around it look bad, so it absolutely shines in comparison. Thus the references to W&L being a school of rich uncaring white kids who never venture into the “black” part of Lexington (I’ve been everywhere in Lex and am still not sure where the good and bad parts are) and instead are too busy getting drunk at “frat parties on the river” or are too busy doing the only things sororities do: judging other women. Because you know that’s all fraternities and sororities do is get drunk and judge other people. It’s not like they’re involved in service at all. The fact is without the support of the Greek system, W&L’s service projects would not be nearly as successful. They hold tons of fundraisers, blood drives, and other events as well as organizing groups for service projects such as Nabors Service Day."</p>

<p>By the way, there is going to be a minority population of completely ignorant students on every campus. W&L has its share, although that ignorance might come out in different ways (not understanding that saying the south will rise again can be insulting vs not understanding that just because someone is from the south doesnt mean you can call them a redneck)</p>

<p>Dima343- BRAVO! Well put! I am one who likes to hear the facts from someone there, not an “expert by the books”! That is what my son choosing Wake- we heard such positive things from graduates here in N.J. (covering 1970-present time)
Thanks- I for one would look see for myself, especially after your post. So can I leave the pearls home for family weekend at Wake? :)</p>

<p>Other notes from this thread: kamala, summer scholars are not representative of the W&L population because they don’t actually go here and many of them won’t get in. BTW I’ve spent much of my summer in Lex, we may have run into each other. </p>

<p>I don’t know what professors would say otherwise, students here are very welcoming of diversity. However if you bring up affirmitive action, well then you open up a whole can of worms and a huge debate breaks out (think this is unique to W&L? then you haven’t been on CC long enough!) Thanks for the “W&L students are cute and friendly and bright” thing though ;)</p>

<p>I would love to see the numbers of W&L parents with PLUS loans. I bet it would probably be surprising considering how many W&L students don’t qualify for much financial aid. There is a lot that goes into a financial aid decision. Just because someone qualifies for little aid does not mean they are rolling in the dough. By the way, A LOT of W&L students have some sort of aid, even if it is just small loans and work-study. We also have quite a few international students who are here on full need-based awards and quite a few students who have been given a lot of aid by the school because they were harmed by Katrina.</p>

<p>The church here is ridiculous. Do a lot of W&L students go to church? Yes. Do a lot of W&L students sleep in on Sundays? Yes. Is there a group of students for whom religion is the top priority in their lives? A very small minority like at most other schools. Is anyone who doesn’t go to church left out? How could they be when W&L students all attend completely different churches at completely different times? By the way there have been plenty of Christian students at Hillel events this year - and no they were not there to try to convert anybody but to learn.</p>

<p>By the way I do admit that I had to relearn a lot of things too. As a Yankee, I always had a certain image of southerners and to be honest, I never imagined having an intelligent conversation with someone with a strong southern accent, or that some of my smartest friends would be from West Virginia and Kentucky of all places!</p>

<p>People at W&L are intolerant? I have not heard of a case of a speaker at W&L or anyone coming to visit being booed, insulted, yelled at, being assaulted or “pied”. I wish I could say the same things about other schools. I am sad to say that the so-called intolerant conservatives at this school are at least as open to other opinions as the liberals back home were (in fact probably much more so).</p>

<p>Xiggi, I will admit that DUI used to be a big problem at W&L but it has been one the school has been fighting for a long time - the implementation of a sober driving system (Traveller) and strict punishments seem to have done the job, the problem is almost completely eliminated (it’s actually now more prevalent among the law students from what I hear)</p>

<p>njmom - girls down here do wear pearls a lot more, but they are certainly not a requirement (with the exception of a certain sorority which I am sure many people even not familiar with W&L can name). By the way, could you PM me with your impressions of Wake when you head down there? My sister is a junior in high school and beginning to look at schools and she is interested in Wake and I didn’t look at schools below VA so I don’t know as much about it as I would like to.</p>

<p>By the way, I would say W&L is the perfect school for any political viewpoint because you get a chance to really debate and have your views challenged which gives you a chance to really develop your ideas better and forces you to do a lot of research. I do not regret going to a school with a majority conservative student body, I have enjoyed the political atmosphere much more than when the entire student body either agreed with me or agreed with me and took it fifty steps farther.</p>

<p>Also (must be the fifth time I am editing this thing) there are students here who really do fit the stereotypes people have of W&L. They tended to congregate in three fraternities (two now that Beta is gone). If you are not such a person and don’t want to be around them, don’t join those fraternities (trust me you will learn what they are as soon as you get to campus). Of course, having said that, one of my good friends (who chose to live in substance free housing his freshman year) joined one of those fraternities so maybe I’m completely wrong about them and just succumbing to stereotypes (which they voluntarily play up by having redneck parties and parties celebrating General Lee - although some of those could be tongue-in-cheek, which would probably make me feel really dumb after telling you guys not to believe in stereotypes).</p>

<p>Dima343- I would be happy to pm you with my impressions (which are at this point, after visiting twice, amazing!) Better yet, I will have my son add his imput after he is situated. I am a little nervous about the wealth there, as we are not, (qualified for a small scholarship) wealthy by any means. But I know a few “regular” people who attend or graduated, and feel it is “loan-worthy” to a degee! My son is already looking into being an RA to help out with expenses. I think your great honest posts have quieted a few! Who will argue that you are the best person to answer the original poster’s question.</p>

<p>xiggi – </p>

<p>I sincerely apologize for misunderstanding and offending you. That was never my intent. As I said, I sincerely respect your opinion about fraternities, and appreciate better now why you hold it. (You can take my words without any sarcasm!) </p>

<p>Please accept that I read your posts far differently than you may have intended them to be taken. That is a risk on CC. I was reacting to what you wrote in this thread, including the words you chose. Perhaps like others, I did not know what you chose not to tell us, including your very personal and compelling reason for having a negative reaction to W&L based on its active Greek life. I am truly sorry for your loss. Alcohol related hazing is unacceptable anytime, at any school, in any group --Greek or otherwise. It is preventable. And preventing such tragedies is apparently why Beta is no longer operating at W&L. </p>

<p>With all due respect, my point about the connection you have drawn between fraternity life and a “battle” between the liberal faculty and conservative students stands. From what I have seen, heard, read, and listened to from students and alums, I still see little or no evidence that a “battle” rages between liberal faculty and conservative students, much less that the cause of such a rift is participation in Greek life at the same levels it has existed for generations. I do not read the ISI report as evidence that there is some right-left battle between students and faculty arising from Greek life. I read the Trident every week during the past school year, and cannot understand what there could be in this publication to support that proposition either. </p>

<p>If this was not your intended message, then I again apologize for misunderstanding.</p>