Balancing science classes

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
1

<p>Community college transfer here; completed most of my gen-eds there and will be transferring to a 4-year this fall. I’m looking for some guidance as to how my schedule looks as a bio major. Most of the scheduled classes left at the four-year are for my major, thus my schedule will be science heavy.</p>

<p>This inquiry comes after reading past threads in the pre-med forum that speak of balancing science course loads. In these past threads, many parents recommended against an “all science/math course load,” based on their child’s experience. </p>

<p>For those who might argue that science majors take a full science course load all the time, many pre-med bio major students I know don’t. Instead, many mixed their science classes with non-science general education requirements for balance, a luxury which I can’t do now. </p>

<p>The recommendation in past threads has me rethinking my major this fall and would like to get some opinions before I proceed with this plan. </p>

<p>What do you think about the following bio major/pre-med schedule?</p>

<p>**Fall 2014<a href=“14%20credits”>/b</a>
Organic Chem I + lab
Math
Cell and Molecular bio + lab (200-level)
College writing requirement</p>

<p>**Spring 2015<a href=“17%20credits”>/b</a>
Organic Chem II + lab
Math
Psychology class
Biology of Microorganisms + lab (300-level)</p>

<p>**Fall 2015<a href=“16%20credits”>/b</a>
Physics I + lab
Biochemistry + lab (400-level)
Math
One credit bio-major seminar (P/F)
Cellular Biology (400-level)</p>

<p>**Spring 2016<a href=“16%20credits”>/b</a>
Physics II + lab
Evolution (300-level)
One credit bio-major seminar (P/F)
Genetics + lab (400-level)
Ecology (200-level)</p>

<p>Points to consider:

  • Two labs per semester. 400-level (Biochem and genetics) labs - which are worth two credits each and require 6 hours of “lab time” each per week - are a lot of work here from what I hear.
  • For general reference, the maximum allowable credits per semester at my college (without asking for permission) is 18 credits.
  • Let me also add that I’m not a “typical science nerd,” and the bio + chem courses I’ve already taken were alot of work for me. Not excited about majoring in biology but this is the only major that will allow me to graduate on time.
  • I plan to take the MCAT in Spring 2016.
  • I will be working part time and will have weekly extracurricular activities.</p>
2

<p>Consider dropping the labs for genetics and biochemistry. If you already have lab credit for a lower level bio course, you don’t need the additional lab credits and not a single medical school requires labs for either class.</p>

<p>I assume that one of the math classes will be statistics? You’ll need it for the MCAT.</p>

3

<p>Really wish I could but the labs for each semester are bare minimum for the major. An alternative would be to petition for a more current catalog - which would enable me to take one 400-level lab out but add a couple more classes to my schedule. This current catalog would give me more freedom to pick electives, whereas my schedule in my original post can’t give me that option. Schedule is posted below. </p>

<p>Yep, one math class will be statistics.</p>

<p>**Fall 2014<a href=“17%20credits”>/b</a>
Organic Chem I + lab
Math
Cell and Molecular bio + lab (200-level)
College writing requirement
Psychology class</p>

<p>**Spring 2015<a href=“17%20credits”>/b</a>
Organic Chem II + lab
Math
New general education requirement
Biology of Microorganisms + lab (300-level)
Evolution (300-level)</p>

<p>**Fall 2015<a href=“16%20credits”>/b</a>
Physics I + lab
Biochemistry (400-level) = Upper division biology elective
One credit bio-major seminar (P/F)
Cellular Biology (400-level) = Upper division biology elective
Ecology + lab (200-level)</p>

<p>**Spring 2016<a href=“16%20credits”>/b</a>
Physics II + lab
Math
Avian biology (400-level) = Upper division biology elective
One credit bio-major seminar (P/F)
Genetics + lab (400-level) = Upper division biology elective</p>

<p>For this second schedule/catalog - with the exception of biochemistry - the 400-level electives marked above can change. These are my options:</p>

<p>Conservation Biology (300-level)
Biochemistry (400-level)
Cell Biology (400-level)
Ecological Animal Physiology (400-level)
Behavioral Ecology & Evolution (400-level)
Plant Ecology (400-level)
Plant Diversity & Evolution (400-level)
Genetics (400-level)
Ecological Genetics (400-level)
Mammalian Behavior (400-level)
Avian Biology (400-level)
Advanced Ecology and Evolution (400-level)</p>

<p>In addition to the 200-level specific labs already in the schedule, the same catalog requires one 300-level lab (spring 2015: bio of microorganisms in above schedule) and one 400-level lab (spring 2016: genetics in above schedule). </p>

<p>Evolutionary Genetics Lab (300-level)
Biology of Microorganisms Lab (300-level)
Biochemistry Lab (400-level)
Cell Biology Lab (400-level)
Genetics Lab (400-level)
Ecology & Evolution Research Method Lab (400-level lab for Advanced Ecology and Evol. above)</p>

<p>For the 300-level lab, bio of microorganisms and evolution (both in spring 2015) are core classes for the major so I picked bio of microorganisms without much thought but I have the option to take evolution lab instead.</p>

<p>***All 400-level labs require a time commitment of about 6 hours a week.</p>

<p>Are there biology classes above that might be more like a non-science class that would require less time on my part? Which catalog would you pick and how would you rearrange them to make sure it’s balanced?</p>

4

<p>Don’t know how difficult the specific courses are your school, but both kiddos found ecology/evolution courses to be pretty easy. YMMV.</p>

<p>With an eye toward med school, you might be better off changing avian biology (unless for some reason you have a special interest in the topic) for something more relevant to humans/medicine. Maybe cell bio? Mammalian behavior?</p>

<p>And regardless of which catalog you use, I really don’t see a way around having multiple science heavy semesters if you need to graduate on time.</p>

<p>(BTW, you should be aware that med school is often compared to taking 6-7 full credit science classes with all at once. Think of your schedule as being “in training” for the med school. And please don’t assume that med students have the luxury of studying 24/7. They don’t. There are EC expectations for med students too–clinical volunteering, shadowing/departmental volunteering, research, journal clubs, etc.–which are needed for residency applications.)</p>

5

<p>It is way too heavy in science in your senior year (in both semesters). Also, if you apply in junior year, it will be unclear to adcoms why did you wait for so long to complete so many science requirements. Another consideration is MCAT. Again, based on my D’s experience as I do not have anything else to use, she has mentioned, that taking Physics BEFORE MCAT was crucial to her (her diagnostic score, before taking Physics, was 10 points lower than her actual score, while she did not need to prepare Chemistry at all). If you are going to take MCAT in your junior year and interview in your senior year, then this schedule will put you at disadvantage. If you are taking MCAT in your senior year, then what is a rush? Then have another year in college and spread your science classes. However, your semester CREDIT load is low already (not actual working load, it is NOT low by any means at all). If you make it lower, than you will not look good from this prospective. So, if you decided to have another year in UG, then, maybe you can add a minor in area of your personal interest.<br>
I also noticed (this is too late for you, but maybe somebody else is reading who is not that far on this road to Med. School), I have noticed that starting at CC is adding another layer of concern and is NOT at all advantageous from any prospective, including financial. If you evaluate average pre-med crowd at any UG, these are very top caliber HS students, with large percentage of valedictorians. Why kids like these do not seek Merit awards at 4 years colleges is totally confusing to me (considering that financial side is the major reason for going to CC first). CC route is not cheapest at all and not the shortest. The cheapest is to get great Merit package at 4 years college (maybe full tuition or close or full ride) and stay at one place for duration of your UG education.</p>

6

<p>Thank you WayOutWestMom. While there is obviously not a way to avoid the heavy science semesters, I was hoping someone could shed some light on the level of difficulty I might encounter in each class. While my mileage may vary, for example, organic chemistry and calculus II are generally considered to be tougher science/math classes for many pre-med students. I was hoping to use this information to balance the schedule by strategically picking more manageable bio classes.</p>

<p>I’m not assuming anything about medical students, just going based off of what I hear from friends who are in med school. All the MS I & MS II’s I know (personally know about a handful of them) don’t seem to do much other than “eat, sleep and study” (their words, not mine). I’m guessing that many do what you mentioned in their third and fourth years? </p>

<p>While their course load might be equivalent to 6 – 7 science classes, do consider that many of them didn’t jump into that course load as suddenly as I am with 4+ science/math classes combined. Most I had was two science and math classes a semester. </p>

<p>MiamiDP

</p>

<p>I do not plan on applying in my junior year, see my first post. My CC didn’t offer many of the major requirements. I also did not originally plan on majoring in Bio in the beginning. </p>

<p>I once considered a fifth year to have room to major in an area I’m more interested in (as mentioned, I’m not too excited about biology). Funding was my main concern before I cut the third year option out; I would have likely need to finance loans for my third year. With your concern about my science loads being too heavy however, and knowing my gut instinct, I’m now thinking that it would be in my best interest to pursue the additional year. </p>

<p>I do have to agree with you about community college. While I saved some a ton of money (no loans so far! Whoohoo!!), I regret attending badly because of this situation. Wish someone warned me about this before I decided to attend community college. </p>

7

<p>I am sorry about the problem OP is facing. Medicine is mostly about Biology, so if you are not interest in Bio, why not get a degree in some other discipline you are interested instead? The doors at med school are narrow and hard, the reward may or may not be there. Even after all these schooling and became a doctor, you are still facing endless legal challenges. </p>

8

<p>

</p>

<p>There isn’t time during MS3 for ECs. (Too many 12+ hour days at the hospital.) And MS4 is too late. You need the shadowing & departmental volunteering before MS3/MS4 to help identify your potential specialties so you can choose clinical electives wisely. Research needs to be completed and published (or at least accepted for publication) before residency applications are go out at the beginning of MS4.</p>

<p>And yeah, med students do study 24/7, but they have lots of other things on their plate too.</p>

<p>BTW, why are you taking calc 2? It’s only required at a handful of medical schools ( n<5) and it’s not required for a bio degree.</p>

<p>~~~~</p>

<p>If you do decide to take a 5th year to complete your degree, consider majoring in something you like better than bio and which will allow you to better balance your schedule. </p>

9

<p>" do have to agree with you about community college. While I saved some a ton of money (no loans so far! Whoohoo!!"
-As I menitoned, you dd not save any, CC option cost more. You would have saved if you pursue Merit awards option at 4 years colleges. I am not saying that every college would cover a total cost. As I have mentioned, D. has received Merit packages that were significantly different from one 4 y college to another. But many (including privates) give lots to top caliber students and it is in effect the cheapest. Also, if you are not applying in the junior year and NOT staying in UG for 5th year, do you have a solid plan for your gap year? If not, that will be another concern in regard to your Med. School application.
While non-CC option is not available to you any more, you still have to have a solid plan and schedule of various events in a future or you will have another layer of concern.</p>

10

<p>“I was hoping someone could shed some light on the level of difficulty I might encounter in each class.”</p>

<p>Probably impossible to answer as it can be quite professor specific. </p>

<p>“Let me also add that I’m not a “typical science nerd,” and the bio + chem courses I’ve already taken were alot of work for me. Not excited about majoring in biology but this is the only major that will allow me to graduate on time.”</p>

<p>Although people who fail to get into med school on their first attempt do reapply (sometimes more than once) and get accepted, it’s a much harder mountain to climb. Assuming one can survive the premed gauntlet, it’s considered easier(??) to get accepted on your first attempt. At first blush your tentative plan appears quite challenging for one who is not a typical science nerd, or even is. Although the numbers thrown around are unknowable, it’s estimated that some 140K or more may start down premed path each year. In last year accurate numbers were reported, just over 48K actually applied to med school with over 20K who actually started. So a lot of premed hopeful students crashed and burned along the way, a lot. When S was in high school, the academic mantra seemed to be take the hardest possible courses one can take and hopefully do well in. Your tentative plan reminds me somewhat of that approach. The premed academic mantra seems to be take the necessary premed courses, excel in them, AND also pick a major that you are interested in and can excel in. If one’s major interest happens to be bio, great. This major does not have to be the one with the hardest possible courses/schedule. I understand that you were unable to mix in major and GE courses in CC years. But as you indicated, this biology major/schedule was chosen not because of interest, but primarily because of need to catch up, or “graduate on time”. I can appreciate any economic concerns, but if med school is your goal, don’t be blinded by having to graduate college “on time.” Slowing down and taking one more year at college will not by itself prove fatal. Trying to do the premed thing right the first time will save you time, money, stress, and improve your chances of getting into med school. And if you don’t get accepted into med school and choose not to reapply, hopefully you’ll have a background that can translate into a viable post college career whereas a bio degree may not be so useful. </p>

<p>Are you really set on the bio major/schedule as outlined above? Is there some other major that you are more interested in, potentially gives you an extra year and more breathing space, and very importantly, believe you’re more likely to excel? Consider or not, it’s just my unsolicited ramblings. Good luck. </p>

11

<p>poppy1: You dont have to answer if you choose not to, but what is your current overall GPA? What about GPA in any science courses (bio,math, chem,physics)? </p>

12

<p>

I think you’re misunderstanding what I meant. I did not say I have no interest in biology, I said I’m not too excited about majoring in bio. Why? Mainly because I’m a practical person. With the glut of bio majors out there, I believe that biology will limit my ability to obtain a job after graduation, if med school plans do not work out. If you’re telling me to forget about medicine because I’m not interested in majoring in biology, I’d love to hear your logic behind that. My main reason for not wanting to major in something else is because it would take me an additional year. </p>

<p>

I’m taking it as a general education requirement. I have to satisfy two university math requirements for general ed and statistics isn’t one of them.</p>

<p>

Miami, how so? For CC, I didn’t pay a penny. All covered. I will be transferring to a local private school that I can commute to, as I have done for CC. Tuition paid for the next two years through a scholarship. Likely only to pay a thousand dollars each year out of pocket to cover books and supplies. I think I’ve done very well to keep costs down so far. </p>

<p>Two “costs” I keep in mind; money and time. In terms of actual monetary value for my situation, if I decide to take a fifth year, in the wider scope of things, the CC pathway will still cost less than the amount of debt that the average student graduates with after four years. If I don’t take the fifth year, I won’t have to pay the thousands of dollars in tuition it’ll take for me to stay a fifth year. </p>

<p>When thinking in terms of time, if I decide to switch my major, I’ll need to take a fifth year. This could delay my med school application (if I decide to squeeze my science classes through the last semester of my fifth year) and delay entrance to medical school. This cost could be a well-paid cost if it means that the fifth year would give me the better chances of obtaining a high GPA and more time to pursue meaningful activities that round the application (basically, fifth year might mean a stronger application).</p>

<p>

Many of my med school friends took gap years so I’m familiar with what you’re saying. Have a few things in mind but nothing is set yet. </p>

13

<p>Bingo! You have my thoughts down to the tee, @Jugulator20! You did a great job of relating to what my inner thoughts were; I had a difficult time relaying them in words because it’s all jumbled in there, as I try to straighten my priorities out. Attempted to explain by responding to the above posters then read yours. </p>

<p>One of my HS friends who graduated with high ranks (very hard working) went on to attend our flagship university let go of her med school aspirations after her first year because of a low GPA. She had the same mentality that you described of students at your son’s high school, only it was in college against pre-med students in college. She admitted that she took on more than she could chew. Learning from her experience, I really don’t want to ruin my chances by jumping into something that might be too much work for someone who hasn’t even - what I consider - gotten one’s feet wet yet. </p>

<p>

Not set with the above schedule and bio major. Since I started this post, many biology seniors at my university who I’ve shared this schedule with said they’d never attempt to do the schedules I’ve proposed for my last year. There actually is a major that I’d feel more comfortable about completing. Thanks for some direction! I’ll reassess the fifth year and reconsider the two majors that were shot down solely because it would have taken me an extra year to complete</p>

<p>

I don’t mind sharing. I have about a 3.8 overall (C- in psych, due to a careless mishap) and a 4 for science GPA. </p>

14

<p>Sorry misunderstood your desire to major something other than Bio and yes, bio major has little marketability other than the medical school track or the Phd track.</p>

<p>Based on what I see in your schedule, your Feet are all wet when you entered that 4 year college. However, if you are interested in the med school track, you must work very hard for it in UG. I think you are ok in your course schedule. You just need to work very hard to maintain your GPA and for the MCAT,</p>

15

<p>poppy1</p>

<p>I didn’t mean to pry about GPAs, but for people trying to offer input it can be an important fact to know. If one’s GPAs are around 2.0 then the input offered would probably be much different than say a person like you with around a 3.8 overall/4.0 science GPA. Congrats on your academic efforts so far. You seem to be doing great especially considering you seem to be maybe “halfwayish” done with college in terms of units completed.</p>

<p>Your GPA accomplishments to date further speak to my point about slowing down and doing the med school app right the first time even if it takes another year. You really need to safeguard those numbers. Your GPAs don’t have much, if any (science GPA 4.0) upside in terms of going higher and potentially a lot of downside which could easily dash any med school hopes. Don’t panic about a B here and there because as you take more and more courses the impact of B here and there, though not ideal, has less and less ability to move a GPA up or down. It’s a downward trend or huge drop that could be curtains for you. So it’s important that you keep these GPAs up. I’m not saying to pad your schedule with several basket weaving courses. Besides major related courses, any additional courses should have substance. But a downward trend and/or huge drop in upper division courses would be a red flag to an adcom who is pondering whether or not you could cut it academically in a med school curriculum. As a note, med schools can readily spot trends/drops because, unlike a college app, when a med school app is processed the applicant’s coursework gets broken down into each individual year. So your app shows a science (BCMP) gpa, an all other courses gpa, and a total gpa for each and every year along with cumulative gpas. A trend up/down or a huge drop is right in front of an adcom.</p>

<p>Anyone want to comment on need to retake the C- in psych course? </p>

16

<p>Since psych is not yet a admission requirement for med schools (Indiana and MUCOM being the only exceptions I know of so far) and since a retake will have a very minimal effect on overall GPA (4 credits out of over 130), I think if the OP feels she has a good grasp of the material covered in the course, she should skip a retake and move on, especially since money and/or time has been mentioned as an issue.</p>

<p>If she should decide to apply to a medical school that does require psych for admission, she can always do a re-take during her application cycle. (Online or CC psych courses will be acceptable at most schools. See the MSAR for specifics.)</p>

17

<p>Thanks @Jugulator20! A downward trend is exactly what I want to avoid. Thanks for your thoughts!</p>

<p>@WayOutWestMom, I feel that I have a good understanding of the topics discussing in intro psych today. </p>

<p>However, your mention of having a good grasp on the material had me thinking. Since I won’t be applying for another year or two, and assuming courses are taken to help aid one’s performance on the MCAT, is it normal to forget some material by the time one takes it? For example, I took chem in my freshman year and I feel that I’m already forgetting a lot of the material, mainly because I haven’t been doing any chem problems. The big gap between taking chem and taking the MCAT doesn’t help at all. Is this something I should be worried about?</p>

<p>The above in mind, how would it look if I decide to postpone the rest of the med school prerequisites during the next couple years and instead take them after I graduate? Taking all med school prerequisites out easily means that I can graduate in two years with a major that I’d be happier with (and I can stop dwelling on not graduating in two years if I did decide to spread my major classes over a three year period)! I’m in no rush to submit an app to medical school and would like to know if this is a good alternative plan to pursue. </p>

<p>Doing this has at lease one advantage, I feel. Graduating in two years would mean making use of the degree I earned by working (and earning income). I’d hope that it would be perfectly fine for me to work and enroll part time to complete the prerequisites. BTW, if this route is acceptable, I plan to take the courses over a one year period—emulating what formal 1-yr post-baccalaureate programs recommend for their students. I think taking the sciences slow would also help me out by learning them each in-depth for the MCAT. Not sure how med schools view this strategy however. </p>

<p>The thing that also worries me is that I’ve already started med-related activities/interests. If I decide on this route - and focus instead on making my degree more marketable for employers - should I be worried that the admissions committee might ask why I decided to stop taking prerequisites when I transferred from CC to 4-yr?</p>

18

<p>@poppy1‌ </p>

<p>Knowledge decay over time is normal. That’s why many students take MCAT preparation classes–both to learn test taking strategies and to review the content material. MCAT prep, whether thru a class or done on one’s own, requires a period of devoted studying. 6-12 weeks is fairly typical.</p>

<p>Postponing the rest of your pre-reqs is viable strategy. There are specialized programs (called pre-med post-baccs) for students who have not completed some or all of their pre-reqs. </p>

<p>AMCAS has a searchable database here:</p>

<p><a href=“https://services.aamc.org/postbac/”>https://services.aamc.org/postbac/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Some of them are quite expensive; others are not. You can certainly do a “do it yourself” approach at local college on part-time basis. (I would advise against completing the rest at a community college. That would look highly suspicious to adcomms since you would have avoided taking any pre-reqs at a 4 year college.)</p>

<p>Admission committees understand that students may be under financial constraints and need to take a less traditional path. This would be something you would address in your PS. Also many secondaries ask about any gap periods when you were not actively in school or your activities after graduation–so you would also have a opportunity to address your decision there too.</p>

<p>Many medicals schools are very welcoming towards non-traditionals and value the broader world-view and life experience they bring. </p>

<p>You should continue with as many of your pre-med activities (esp community service and clinical volunteering) as possible during your time at your 4 year college and after graduation.</p>

<p>(P.S. My older D did exactly the thing you are suggesting here. She didn’t decide to try for medicine until shortly before graduation. She graduated and worked while completing the rest of her pre-reqs part-time at the state flagship. She took 2 years to complete her post-bacc–mostly because as a non-degree-seeking student she was in the last group to register for classes and she had to balance her work hours with the hours when classes were available. Some employers/jobs are less flexible than others when it comes to employee work hours.</p>

<p>I would caution you against expecting you will be able to finish all your remaining pre-reqs in a 1 year. The formal post-baccs are full-time programs where students do not work even part-time. Even the formal post-baccs take longer than 1 year to complete. D2’s BFF is attending one now and the program is a minimum of 1.5 years due to the chem sequence requirements.)</p>

19

<p>Thank you @WayOutWestMom. I’m more convinced that postponing my pre-reqs would be better for me while I work on completing a degree in two years so I can work full time. It’s good to hear that many medical schools are open to this strategy.</p>

<p>At first glance, the cost of a post-baccs is quite a lot compared to what I’d be paying for a third year. How do students who have no money pay for such programs? I’ve always been dependent on scholarships for my undergrad and wonder if post-bacc scholarships exist. </p>

<p>Is there an advantage to doing a pre-med post-bacc versus a DIY at a local college? </p>

<p>As a starting reference for me regarding your daughter’s post-bacc experience, how many credits or classes did she take per semester while working? I will be sure to make sure my course loads are manageable while working. </p>

20

<p>D2’s BFF is taking out over $40K in loans for her post-bacc. (She had multiple acceptances at 4 top post-baccs and was offered some scholarship money that brought down her costs to just $40K; however,this is very unusual.) </p>

<p>A DIY can be done on a pay-as-you-go basis to avoid most additional loans. Or you can take out a limited amount of unsub Staffords if you are enrolled at least a half time level. </p>

<p>The advantage to some formal post-baccs** are:</p>

<p>1) linkages. Some very top programs have guaranteed admission agreements with certain med schools. (NOTE: linkages are only available at very top, very expensive private programs. The admission offer will be to a limited list of private med schools. Only very top students [10%] in the post bacc are offered this option and they must decide if they want to go this route at the end of the first year in program before they take the MCAT. Applying out to other schools will invalidate their guaranteed admission. This means the student must promise to attend a expensive private med school and cannot apply to their less expensive in-state options.)</p>

<p>2) structured ECs (built-in research, shadowing and clinical volunteering opportunities)</p>

<p>3) strong advising (advisors know which schools are receptive to their grads)</p>

<p>**NOTE not all formal post-bacc offer these things. Mostly available only at top, private [expensive] post baccs. </p>

<p>The success rate at formal post-baccs vary enormously from very good (acceptance rate approaching 67%) to dismal (acceptance rate <5%) </p>

<p>OTOH, some DIY post baccs have strong reputations and good placement rates–Harvard Extension, for example.</p>

<p>Caveat Emptor!</p>

<p>D1 took 1 course/semester while working full time. She was formally enrolled half-time (2 courses/semester) for a couple of semesters while working multiple part-time jobs and took out the maximum staffords.</p>