<p>Of course a D student at USNA is different from a D student elsewhere because the graduation requirements are different. But in order to graduate 894th out of 899 he needed to be mediocre across the board, in subjects in which he can be compared with students at MIT or RPI or HYPS as well as in subjects in which he cannot be compared. There’s no way he could have gotten that rank and still done well or even average in those subjects in which he can be compared with students at engineering or liberal arts colleges.</p>
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<p>That argument rarely holds up. A “D” student is a “D” student is a “D” student. Kids who got kicked out of my school–arguably the best private school/school in general in my city–for not maintaining at least a 2.0 still failed to maintain a 2.0 when they went to an “easier” school.</p>
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While I don’t mean to impugn the accomplishments of all graduates of our nation’s military academies, graduating at the very bottom of one’s class at a military academy is not nearly as great an “accomplishment” as being designated editor of the Harvard Law Review. Simple math tells you that – its extremely difficult to get admitted to Harvard law, and they only have one person selected editor each year.</p>
<p>That doesn’t make one person better than the other. But I think its pretty clear that Barack Obama was a more serious student and even though he also had issues as a youngster, he clearly is the more academic and better educated of the two candidates. And education does count for something – I find it a little silly, for example, to focus so much on “experience” in foreign policy when I know that Obama’s college major focused on international relations – especially since my daughter has the same major at a sister institution and I have seen the depth of her knowledge gained from a single introductory course in international affairs. </p>
<p>Knowledge is not the same as experience, but I think its stupid to discount the value of a strong education and intellectual curiosity while reciting the mantra of “experience”. You are dealing with a very smart, well-informed man who is able to understand and comprehend the complexity of world affairs.</p>
<p>Take a look at the excerpts from the Jerusalem Post that I posted on the other Obama thread and see who made the more favorable impression as to knowledge of the issues in the Middle East (Posts 517 & 518):<br>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/540873-obama-audacity-vanity-who-guy-35.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/parent-cafe/540873-obama-audacity-vanity-who-guy-35.html</a></p>
<p>I wouldn’t feel any better about electing a D student from Harvard. Admitting it doesn’t make it better.</p>
<p>mathmom: LOL!! I would not, either. We did elect a C student from Yale. Twice. Lower than this I could not go.</p>
<p>Keep in mind:</p>
<p>Had JM’s responsibilities at USNA been ONLY to go to class & complete course requirements, I’m sure his grades & class standing would’ve been much higher. </p>
<p>THAT’S the point here - it’s apples & oranges to compare performance at a civilian school & a military academy.</p>
<p>All other things aside however, JM did succeed at a top 5 Engineering School. </p>
<p>(With probably a much more demanding curriculum than BO’s at Harvard - again, not even counting the extra stuff midshipmen have to do. I forgot to mention before that besides inspections, formations, PT & drill, etc., all mids must participate in a sport - that takes up a ton of time). </p>
<p>I wish y’all would give up on the idea that he’s “not smart” - or less intelligent than BO using college performance as the measuring stick. (Regardless of grades or class standing, McCain comes out on top anyway by virtue of the rigors of the curriculum & required ECAs).</p>
<p>Okay, then McCain is less accomplished than 893 other students in his class.</p>
<p>If grades are so important, I’m sure glad Gore wasn’t elected president!</p>
<p>Gore was a C student at Harvard. He earned an F in 5 of his 8 classes he took over 3 semesters at Vanderbilt Divinity School, eventually dropping out. He also dropped out of Vanderbilt Law School.</p>
<p>Give it up, Marite - that isn’t saying much considering the calibre of those other students.</p>
<p>To learn more about McCain’s exploits as a student as USNA, you can read an excerpt from Timberg’s book, The Nightingale’s Song at Amazon here: </p>
<p>[Amazon</a> Online Reader : The Nightingale’s Song](<a href=“http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684826739/ref=sib_dp_ptu#]Amazon”>http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0684826739/ref=sib_dp_ptu#)</p>
<p>Page 33 (bottom) begins discussing what a natural leader he was.</p>
<p>Why should I give up the idea that McCain was a mediocre student, which he himself admitted</p>
<p>And really, how do we know how he would have fared at other colleges?</p>
<p>And bz, I see you’ve not taken up some other issues: the Obama hates the troops ad that uses a clip of Obama WITH the troops; the article that shows MCCain flubbing a question about Israeli settlements and looking to Joe Lieberman for help; the ad where McCain accuses Obama of being responsible for high gas prices… </p>
<p>But that’s okay. I’m going to give it up because you seem absolutely impervious to evidence that shows McCain as being less than perfect.</p>
<p>BZ:</p>
<p>You don’t talk for McCain. </p>
<p>When he says he was a poor student, he means he was a poor student. ;)</p>
<p>Not only was McCain a poor student, it runs in his family. One of his sons in Iraq flunked out of school twice, and Cindy enlisted the son, without McCain’s knowledge.</p>
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<p>Source please?</p>
<p>marite - I do not mean to imply that I think McCain is “perfect” - quite the contrary. The Timberg book I linked clearly describes him in less-than-perfect light. I have no illusions. He’s still preferable to the other guy(s).</p>
<p>Haven’t seen the ad about Obama not visiting the troops - does it really say “Obama hates the troops” as you posted? I’ve seen the gas prices ad, but I’d want to see it again before commenting. I don’t like negative ads, so McCain isn’t going to score any points w/ me for that, but I understand that some think they are necessary in today’s races. I chalk it up to an attempt to counteract all the “positive” press about Obama during his recent tour.</p>
<p>“Flubbing” the question on Israel is just opinion. Just b/c McCain turned to Lieberman for his input on the question, doesn’t mean it was a “flub”. Why wouldn’t McCain defer to Lieberman in that scenario if he were the greater authority on the subject?</p>
<p>Anyway, negative ads & and one editorial are “mouse droppings” in the grand scheme of this election and the future of America under the two possible administrations - just as is McCain’s class standing in 1958.</p>
<p>bz: for someone who claims to have followed Obama closely, you must have tried hard to miss all those clips of Obama with the troops! And before you go defending McCain, take a look at his ad(s) PLEASE.</p>
<p>Why wouldn’t McCain defer to Lieberman? No reason not to. But isn’t he the one claiming expertise on the Middle East? And really Israeli settlements are not exactly some obscure issue. Did anyone see Obama turn to advisers when interviewed by the Jerusalem Post, Obama, the supposed wet-behind-the-ears, not-properly-seasoned empty suit who can’t speak without a teleprompter (see McCain reading from a piece of paper to utter platitudes when meeting with the Dalai Lama). No, there’s no reason for McCain not to defer to Lieberman. It’s very reassuring that someone in the McCain entourage knows something about Israeli settlements. </p>
<p>I agree that these are minor things. But they are the things that have made me lose respect for McCain, which is why you find me in a blue funk. I truly did not want to lose respect for him, for quite personal reasons, even though I do not agree with many of his policies. Another item: See his using “family values” as a reason for opposing adoption by gays. Family values? McCain?</p>
<p>Finally, one reason I’m focusing on these issues, is frankly, because McCain has been in attack mode, like a dog snipping at your heels. He has NOT articulated a vision, a set of policies for us to discuss, except to play catchup with Obama in the most churlish fashion.</p>
<p>But Please, once more, educate yourself about McCain and Obama before posting further.</p>
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<p>You haven’t heard of his “Lexington Project”? That’s just one example, and btw, why should he have to articulate a “Health Care Plan” for instance, when he doesn’t think the government should even BE in the Health Care business?</p>
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I already said I don’t think he’s perfect, but I couldn’t care less about negative ads - from either candidate. </p>
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<p>:rolleyes:</p>
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<p>I totally agree … It’s disappointing to see this man of integrity, who promised us a dignified, issue-based campaign, now becoming increasingly negative. I just hope Obama doesn’t head down that path, but so far he apparently hasn’t seen the need to go “dirty.”</p>
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<p>You’re kidding right? McCain is supposed to be an expert on foreign policy.</p>
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<p>Because ignoring problems doesn’t make them go away…</p>
<p>I couldn’t find anything about a McCain son flunking out of school twice (#113). However, I did find this comment McCain made about his son Jack. Very funny! :)</p>
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