I feel sorry for the city of Charlotte but the NBA made the proper move. I would love for them to move the game to Orlando to drive home the point.
Well… the PGA didn’t actually move. And I’m not really surprised.
In North Carolina, I think the NBA is a bigger deal than the PGA, so it’s still a win.
Apparently the guys who schedule these things like lurking around girls’ bathrooms.
^ Oh give me a freaking break.
But thanks for reminding me what type of people even pass these ridiculous laws.
Hmmm. I’m 63, and I grew up in suburban CT never, ever hearing the N word and gays and lesbians were basically never mentioned. There were people whom everyone probably knew were gay, but it just was kind of don’t ask, don’t tell.
Nevertheless, it has changed a lot in that LBGQT people are openly accepted.
Will this have a backlash on out of state students applying to schools in North Carolina next year? We have some friends who are now reconsidering NC for their kids.
It will, but given how many top out of state students apply I doubt the difference will be noticeable.
When the state legislature refused to allow UNC-CH to create gender-neutral housing that was a blow as well. I still can’t see how that was such a problem, since no one would have been forced to live in a gender-neutral suite. It’s a common arrangement in other countries and somehow the students survive.
Personally I have the most respect for those performers who still hold their event in NC but then donate the proceeds to LGBT organizations like EqualityNC. That was the local folks - the stagehands, concessions owners, area hotels and restaurants - aren’t hurt but a message is still sent. I wish our state government cared more about these businesses that are so impacted by something outside of their control. But if the performance does go on the state gets their cut, so I guess that doesn’t make them feel the pain the way they need to.
UNC-CH is not following this ridiculous law. The towns surrounding the school reported that they will not follow this law either.
D1 reported that there were student protests when the law was passed. No way it’s going to be enforced there.
How are they enforcing it in other areas? Bathroom guards? Who wouldn’t love that job?
There is no possible constitutional way of enforcing this law. That’s part of the problem. The only way to enforce it would be to require every citizen to show a notarized birth certificate to enter a public restroom. I would hope Americans would rebel at that requirement.
What is does, though, is empower people to harass those who don’t fit gender stereotypes. There have already been cases where women who didn’t appear traditionally female have been verbally assaulted - even though they WERE female and fit normal binary stereotypes - they just weren’t “feminine” enough.
People keep saying this is to protect women and children from assault in restrooms. Last time I checked, there were already laws against assault. I don’t see why there need to be additional laws if the assailant dresses in a non-traditional way. Whether dressed as traditionally male, traditionally female, or a unicorn, assault is against the law.
@sylvan8798:
They won’t have bathroom guards…but likely what will happen is someone (and I would give at least 10-1 odds it is a woman reporting a ‘man’ in the restroom, likely a transgender woman, no one cares about F to M’s it seems) will see a transgender person who isn’t so passable (or as has happened, a cis woman who happens to be somewhat masculine looking), will make a squawk and the person will at the least be harassed, and possible arrested. You kind of have to understand the reason behind laws like this, it isn’t about protecting children or women (if it was, increase the penalties on sexual assault in a public place), it is about instilling fear in the people targeted, in this case transgender women.
This has been a common thread with lgbt rights that I have heard over the years, especially religious conservatives arguing against legal protections for lgbt people, that ‘passing such laws shows approval for immoral people’ and the like. I read a book years ago about the Jim Crow south, and it said the laws on keeping blacks separate from whites was designing to enforce the idea in the black community, not only were they second class, but also to keep them in fear of repercussions, either if they violated the Jim Crow laws, or worse, finally took the action that whites had dreaded since the start of slavery, a violent rebellion. Things like this law aren’t about bathroom police per se, it is to make a transgender person (more than likely a woman) think twice of being out in public, especially those still trying to get their sea legs, because one of the big fears is using a restroom, along with being made fun of or being beaten up. It is about putting ‘those people’ in their place, and has nothing to do with protecting women or children.
The good news is other organizations are starting to take note. The NCAA is sending around a survey to various places that could hold NCAA events, like the NCAA basketball tournament, and for example Charlotte is supposed to host regional tournaments in the main tournament and may lose it. The ACC is also actively looking into this, and may pull tournaments from places like Charlotte or even bowl games if they have these kinds of laws. The PGA didn’t act because the tournament was already assigned, but they have said they likely will start taking this into consideration as well. I would only hope the NFL would take a stance, but I doubt that, Roger Goodell doesn’t have an ounce of decency and integrity, Adam Silver has a strong sense of social justice, Goodell it is pretty obvious only cares about the $$$$. I doubt MLB will do much, either, Manfred reminds me of Bud Selig during the Steroid era, the three monkeys of see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.
“Personally I have the most respect for those performers who still hold their event in NC but then donate the proceeds to LGBT organizations like EqualityNC.” That doesn’t do anything, while those organizations I am sure appreciate the money and they do a lot of good with it, it will do little to help. Why? Because the fact that the money goes to LGBT groups might rankle some on the other side, it won’t do anything to change legislators minds, and those groups can’t use it to lobby if they are non profits, they can advocate a position, but they cannot lobby nor can they campaign for candidates who would overturn the law (if they are 501c3 that is).
“That was the local folks - the stagehands, concessions owners, area hotels and restaurants - aren’t hurt but a message is still sent. I wish our state government cared more about these businesses that are so impacted by something outside of their control. But if the performance does go on the state gets their cut, so I guess that doesn’t make them feel the pain the way they need to.”
Not only the state, but the stagehands, concession owners, hotels and businesses would not feel the pain, and that is important. You can’t assume that the hotel owners, concession owners, and especially the ordinary workers hurt by performances being cancelled (security people, concession workers, stage hands, lighting technicians and so forth) are necessarily victims, many of them likely support the law and the politicians that passed it. Sure,some businesses tried to block the law, but to be honest it was like my wife trying to get our new pups from being out of control by waving a tissue at them, it was half hearted and too late. Unless there is pain, those who support the law will be emboldened that it didn’t do anything, the business owner who otherwise personally might think the law was asinine, will shrug his/her shoulders and say “that law sucks, but hey, the sun rose today,my business is doing okay, so no big deal”. I don’t feel sorry for those who might otherwise not like this law, because they let it be passed, they didn’t call their legislators to complain, the business owners didn’t come together and threaten the politicians who voted for this that they were gonna be forced out of office, which you can be sure the religious right and the other opponents most certainly did. For the ordinary workers, those who might otherwise not support the law apparently did very little, and those who supported it if there is no pain will think that their side won over the ‘deviants’ and be emboldened.
It is sad that people are hurt, but if in fact this law represents a loud minority in NC, then the silent majority didn’t care enough to stop this, and if they are paying the consequences for the actions of a loud minority, well, then get off your caboose and do something, make sure the governor is thrown out of office and his opponent knows you want the law repealed, put money against the rednecks that passed this, and you won’t face the consequences…it may not be fair to those who opposed the law that they get hurt, too, but if they don’t get hurt, they likely will do what far too many people do in this country, shake their head, say ‘that’s terrible’, but unless it affects them, will do nothing. It is kind of like the phenomenon in politics where people don’t like the candidates being elected, think that congress is horrible, etc in polls, but don’t vote, when if they did, likely the people they don’t like would lose.
Many of us DID speak loudly. We vocally supported candidates who opposed this legislation. We protested at the Capital. We contacted our legislators. Do you live in NC? I do. I know many small business owners who did actively protest this legislation but are being tarred by the same brush as the ones who supported it. Look into the efforts of the owner of Replacements Ltd. We didn’t “let” this law be passed. It was passed over strenuous objection. So fault me if you will for having sympathy for the “little guy” who DID actively campaign against HB2. You seem to think that everyone who wasn’t for it ignored it and therefore deserves to be punished. I feel for the LGBT community, but I also feel for the businesses who support the LGBT community and are still at risk of losing everything they’ve worked for.
If you want to understand how something like this passes even if it is not supported by the majority, you need to be educated on how outrageous the gerrymandering is in NC. However, the federal government seems to think that - and the laws designed to suppress voters - are perfectly legal. Makes it harder on the “little guy” when the bullies are allowed to rule the school and the principal refuses to intervene.
Sometimes, even over the objections of sane people, horrible political actions take place. Look at how close Trump is to the presidency for an example.
Self righteous pols rarely care about how much the little guy suffers especially if the little guy likely didn’t vote his way. I’m sorry for what you and others are going through in NC Inigo. Let’s hope SCOTUS acts quickly and you don’t have to wait for the long painful process of trying to vote everyone out and redistrict. Although that should be done too!
We’ve staged our own mini-boycott. We will not stop in NC for any reason. When going through on I-77, we gas up in Whytheville, VA, and use the bathroom in Rock Hill, SC. We’re only 3 people. But as a famous politician said this past week, we’re “voting our conscience.” DW works with a lot of trans hs and college students. The actions of the NC state legislature are beyond shameful.
@InigoMontoya While I have sympathy for the small businesspeople in NC who support LBGTQ rights, I can’t tell who is whom when passing through. And I entirely respect your sympathy for them. But until their voices are loud enough to overturn the majority, we won’t be stopping.
Hope I word this right…
- I think open discourse remains important. Shutting down discussion is not a good thing Calling someone racist or bigoted who may have legitimate concerns (to them, not you) which have not been met or addressed in some way is not productive. At that point it is simply name calling.
Calling someone a racist or bigot won’t change their mind. Pointing out that the people they embrace are the very ones that they hurt is more meaningful. Education is always continuing.
To call NC a bigoted state because of this is just deplorable to me because it demeans all the good people who live there. The wording of the law is pretty bad (hopefully we can start in agreement with that at least) and hopefully will be fine tuned in time to be acceptable to all. The process needs a chance–calling for some other equally badly worded law that nobody likes won’t help either.
Society changes and HAS changed in response to societal pressure and education. The best laws come from the people themselves as views are changed. Not as government dictates.
Is “sexual orientation” a protected class or should it become one is highly debatable and will go on for years.
- The NBA as a private organization can make whatever statement they want. Perfect right. No question.
But…“NC has a ‘bathroom law’ we don’t like so we won’t go there even though part of our organization lives and supports us all the time. But we want to make a political/societal statement instead.”
" We are voting as an organization to basically boycott NC."
. Did the Charlotte Hornets and fans vote? Only the owners. No matter. Who ever gets a vote in a big privately owned enterprise?
Doesn’t matter but…
3) When did SPORTS become a political venue?
OMG–I was hoping there was ONE last respite in America!
But obviously money showed up even more than normal. You’ll never convince me this was strictly political–it was an excuse to change venues to the highest bidder. Get real.
“Open discourse” is like tolerance. When used by many people, it means only discussing and supporting opinions and actions that align with their beliefs. There is no real way to discuss things like this because one side feels that switching genders is perfectly okay and the other side sees it as a mental disorder, and neither is willing to admit the other is right. There is no real way to discuss gay/lesbian stuff because one side believes it’s wrong and one side believes it is right or at least allowable because God loves everyone. To an extent even topics like gun control don’t reach, these are black and white issues.
I don’t know if the majority supported it or not, though polls indicate that a majority did support it. I feel for the small businesses that are hurt by this and the people hurt who otherwise think the law is horrible, but if there is no consequences to this law being passed then nothing will change. Yes, I am well aware of the political scene, how gerrymandering works and why if you analyze voting preferences and such the GOP should not have the power it does in the house and senate, but that is the reality of things. That said, if North Carolina as a state doesn’t suffer the consequences it won’t change. If some evangelical Christian who for example supplies let’s say an arena where acts play and that dries up, their business will be hurt, if some stagehand who thinks that LGBT people are ‘queers’ and whatnot suddenly finds himself not working as much, or gets laid off, he will not be so in favor of the law, that is the reality.
Mike Pence, the governor of Indiana now Trumps running mate, when Indiana passed an odious ‘religious liberty law’, despite the fact that he himself is strongly anti LGBT on a number of fronts, was forced by the business community and by people’s whose jobs were threatened with rewriting the bill.It went from being basically almost carte blanche to discriminating legally against LGBT people on all fronts, including allowing employees under the wording of the bill to be able to use religious belief to violate companies anti discrimination policies, to protecting certain things that at the very least were a lot more narrow (and Indiana is like North Carolina, you have a large city (Indianapolis) that is akin to the research triangle or Charlotte, surrounded by a bunch of rural areas who have something in common in that both areas were hotbeds for the KKK back in the day. It didn’t happen because of people’s good will, it didn’t happen because of petitions and the like, it happened because the business community told Pence the damage this law was going to do, people who knew their livelyhood would be hurt, that real financial decisions were at stake, and money talks in politics.
Not to mention that time and again, money wins out, the the religious conservatives in general, even if they threaten action and such, are financially weak, all the boycotts of Disney World , Ford and other places targeted for being LGBT friendly showed that the religious right basically don’t have economic clout.
I feel sorry for the people who will be hurt by the actions happening, but if they don’t happen then it will basically be business as usual. BTW, for every person against the law who spoke out and so forth,there likely were 2 of 3 who didn’t like the law but stayed silent, whether it was individuals or businesses, and it is these people, along with people who supported the law, that boycotts hit, and get them to change their stance. I have friends of mine with roots in Nort Carolina, including some LGBT friends who know people in the LGBT advocacy groups there, and they said that part of the problem was people treated this law as a joke until it was too late, that the counter measures happened too little, too late, they thought this was not going to pass, and when it became clear it might, then they started reacting. With the law in place, the only way it will get overturned is when the real pain starts flowing and the legislators start getting angry calls from people wanting to know why they could have such a law and wanting it repealed, without pain this law is going to stay on the books. The proponents may wave the bible, or tell of the scores of old people who will vote people out of office who want to repeal it, but in the end money talks and you know what walks, pure and simple.
There is another factor that hopefully will work, too. People who see the movie “Inherit the Wind” assume everyone in the town of Dayton, Tennessee were a bunch of Christian fundamentalist idiots standing in the way of progress with the Scopes trial. The reality was there were a lot of people in that town who were against the law involved, and they stated it clearly, besides the fact that they thought that evolution was either correct or at the very least, was what science knew at the time, they also said that they wanted to have the respect of the outside world, that they wanted their kids to be able to go to good schools and not being branded as hayseeds, they wanted to do business with the outside world and didn’t want to be branded as backwards hicks. It won’t be the most die hard proponents of this law, they are too far gone in hate and ignorance to change their minds and economically and otherwise don’t care about the rest of the country, but some of the supporters who do care may realize this could dim prospects for North Carolina and their own kids, that good schools could look at kids from North Carolina and say they aren’t qualified to go to an elite school, or they could be worried an employer at a big corporation would see where they are from, and assume they won’t fit.
And no, I am not saying everyone in North Carolina is a bigot or whatnot. Look, I live in NJ, and for years the legislature tried to pass same sex marriage laws (we had civil unions finally pass thanks to a court ruling that denying those rights violated the state constitution, we got same sex marriage because even Captain Bligh, Trump’s best friend, realized the court was going to tell him his religious beliefs didn’t matter and that civic unions were not the same as marriage), even though a majority of people in NJ supported same sex marriage for a number of years. Likewise, the state had policies on Transgender people that weren’t great,it wasn’t all that long ago that you couldn’t change your sex on your driver’s license unless you had SRS, which left the many people who can’t afford SRS or are in the period where they have to live as their gender before allowed to have SRS, with their main id saying they were M or F, when they were living as women or men. A lot of that is not all that much different than NC, where politicians still think that the religious conservatives are important, when they aren’t, they are a small minority. If the politicians and governor (especially old Captain Bligh) had faced consequences, likely it would have happened sooner, too.
@gouf78 Pretending the law didn’t exist would have been a political move as well. It’s a way of condoning it. Kind of like we teach our kids that it’s wrong to stand the the side and ignore it when someone is being bullied.
I feel badly for the little guy and the businesses and people who have been trying to fight this law and will suffer extra because of it. The blame for all of the suffering falls on those who created the law, IMO.